Talk:Armed police arrest two more 21 July bombing suspects in dramatic raids

Watching live on News streams. Same deal as usual - will fill in sources as I get the chance. Dan100 (Talk) 12:37, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Sky News is playing a recording of the police shouting to the person inside a building, asking him to give himself up either naked or in his underwear, and also asking why he's not coming out. Dan100 (Talk) 13:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

"Assault rifles"
Are they really carrying assault rifles? Other reports suggest "machine guns". I can't find any images to verify.
 * I think they probably have MP5s (i.e. machine guns).

Hi, sorry for lateness of reply. I'm a bit of weapons nerd: in the four man team visible on TV, one officer was using a Heckler & Kock G36C with reflex site and tandem magazine, one was using a G36K with 'scope, the third was carrying a 12-guage pump-action shot and I couldn't see the fourth's weapon. All were carrying Glock 17 sidearms.

Some serious tools - a step beyond the MP5s usually carried. Dan100 (Talk) 16:15, 29 July 2005 (UTC)


 * You're scaring me, dude :-D Great work, man! :-) SoLando 16:36, 29 July 2005 (UTC)


 * yes, and these are all considered assault rifles. It's convential wisdom to call something like these weapons 'machine guns', but that term is usually referred to much larger calibre weapons.

In which case, evidence of special forces involvement? The UK Sunday Times ran a piece on 31 July which pointed to customised weaponary (in particular a G3K with PSG-1 stock) seen carried by some "police officers" lately being non-standard for police but typical of SAS (or the new reconnaissance regiment).


 * Times article. I was a little confused by that article - they seemed to suggest that one person standing in the street (rather than part of teams that raided the flats) was a member of the SAS, purely because of the weapon he carried. The core SFOs of SO19 have free choice of weapons and equipment, so it wouldn't be unsuprising if that's the reason why that person had that weapon (and why the G36C had a "target illuminator", whatever that's supposed to be...). AFOs also do operate in plain clothes, contary to popular belief - the ACPO guidelines simply state that it should only be done as a last resort. (Of course, that means it's kinda strange that anyone was carrying weapons in plain clothes during a raid). SO19 are also trained (by the SAS) in all that abseiling, blowing doors open type of stuff. Basically, the SAS aren't really needed for this sort of thing anymore; I'd be extremely suprised if there really were SFs operating in London.


 * I also don't understand why the author is trying to insinuate that it was a military officer who shot Mendes - what difference does it make? Dan100 (Talk) 12:37, 1 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well given that Menezes was apparently shot seven times in the head while pinned to the ground, I guess some Brits are a little twitchy about armed officers. Also, given the small proportion of police trained to use firearms and the apparent shortages in police staffing levels, it has been a little surprising for us to see quite so many armed officers around.  Finally, the somewhat different approaches of police (arrest people) and military (kill people) might give added relevance to the question of who in fact these 'armed officers' are.  I guess there is still the shadow of Gibraltar over this sort of thing for some of us.

Innocent people arrested !
(because we're all innocent until convicted in a court of law...we sometimes forget that at times like this)


 * july 15TH "Possible 'mastermind' of London bombings captured in Egypt"
 * july 19th "Suspected 'mastermind' of London bombings no longer a suspect"
 * july 22nd "Armed police shoot man dead on London Underground"
 * july 23rd "Man shot on London Underground unconnected to bombing, says Scotland Yard".

The really good news is that;
 * 1;the Brits don't send their innocent suspects to a Guantanamo Bay to rot
 * 2;the Brits admit it when they screw up. Paulrevere2005 17:18, 29 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Uninformed rubbish! How was the Maze any different? How long did it take them to release the Birmingham Six and admit that mistake? Well? You're just a guilty lefty American infected with that 'Europeans are so much better than us' rubbish. I bet you scream and shout at the patriot act -- would you vote for CCTV cameras capturing your every move? I count one islamofascist bum that was arrested in America's borders that wasn't given the luxury of the American judicial system -- Padilla. I bet your heart is breaking for him, right mate? I'm not a fan of Gitmo, but at least I realise the sheer complexity of the situation instead of spouting the useless 'I'm against everything, but have no solutions to anything'. Stop hating yourself so much. Paul Revere needs another latern -- three if by civilian airliner.

Solution?
Yes, I have a solution(s).
 * 1. Every country keep their military forces within their own territorial boundaries.
 * 2. Only UN soldiers would be allowed to engage in "humanitarian" intervention. Every country could only use their own forces to defend their borders.
 * 3. Freeze non-"immediate family" immigration into the western countries for awhile. A "timeout" so to speak.
 * 4. Offer all immigrants on welfare a lumpsum payment equal to 2 years of welfare payments if they return to their homeland and sign a contract not to come back.
 * 5. Allow tax deductions for "start up" expenses for any new political parties and remove the huge obstacles (at least in the US) which keep grassroots political parties off the ballots.
 * 6. Slap a time restriction on all political service. Maybe 8 years like we now have for President. The "career politician" is usually a whore full of moral syphilis.

and in rebuttal; you're right about me not knowing enough about Britain to comment in general terms, but I do applaud the quick apology re; the innocent dead Brazilian. and your comment about Gitmo makes about as much sense, on a moral basis, as someone saying, "I'm not a fan of terrorist attacks, but at least I realise the sheer complexity of the situation". Paulrevere2005 12:19, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Article title
Why does the title of thie article describes the raid as "dramatic" ?

There has been no casualty afaik. MathieuMa 10:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Its prob because of the large armed presence; use of flashbangs and tear gas; video footage of the two bombing suspects; apparent SAS involvement (according to the Guardian newspaper). Generally not a subdued raid :-D SoLando 10:39, 30 July 2005 (UTC)


 * It apparently was dramatic by British standards...just a standard "Repo" operation by our standards. Maybe Britain will soon become a "macho/macho man" country like our God blessed America...and the 8 year old mates can be playing "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas"; if they don't already....but then you'll have to have 44 million (20 million kids) without health insurance and more handguns than citizens if you REALLY want to americanize yourselves. Paulrevere2005 13:48, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The UK has been trying to be "macho" for hundreds of years: friday/saturday night in some towns; British Empire; SAS and all that. We just don't go for the full-on "rambo style" - bandanas are so last century. :-D SoLando 20:09, 30 July 2005 (UTC)