Talk:Hundreds of thousands rally in Australia against IR legislation

Original reporting
I attended the rally at Belmore Park, Sydney, and took notes on events that transpired, including speeches. - Borofkin 02:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I attended the melbourne one too -Whywhywhy 03:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I attended the Melbourne rally and gave permission for my photos (Takver), as published on Melbourne Indymedia, to be used under a Creative Commons 2.5 licence.--Tirin 04:06, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I attended Sydney rally and took some photos, but most fairly unremarkable - So far, I have included one in the article. I also have a recording of most of Combet's speech which I may upload later. --CitizenBruce 03:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Crowd size
Okay, we need to keep track of crowd size estimates, and generally they need to be atributed to someone. So, breaking it up into differnet sites:

Melbourne
According to this ABC online article the police estimated 100,000. Where does the estimate of 175,000 come from? - Borofkin 04:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, we have an updated police estimate of 150,000 from here, and some papers are estimating 175,000. - Borofkin 04:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

150,000 is what i herd at the rally as by the police nova news estimated more but i didnt have my counting stick out --Whywhywhy 04:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * It's hard estimating crowd sizes, eh? I tried to do it at the Belmore Park rally in Sydney but gave up. - Borofkin 04:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Sharan Burrow, ACTU President, said in a press release post event that 210,000 attended the Melbourne rally.  Sky News gave an estimate of 175,000 based on aerial coverage of the protest, which was quoted and used in The Age in a report published about 11am.  A [report] on the ABC said organisers estimated 245,000 people attended the Melbourne rally.--Tirin 05:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Sydney
We are currently estimating "tens of thousands" for Sydney. Does anyone have a better estimate? - Borofkin 04:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * We've got the 30K figure from an article, where does the 100K figure for all NSW come from?

I was at the gathering at Ryde-Eastwood Leagues Club. This is in the Bennelong electrorate. I was the 200th person in the room, and there were probably another 50-100 who entered after me. On the way out I saw people emerging from the lower floor, which means there was probably a full house down there (another 250 or so??) I live within a few hundred metres of the club, and so am familiar with typical parking arrangements. The culb has two car parks. On a typical Saturday night once the car parks are full cars fill the street parking for a 100m radius around the club. After this morning's meeting car parking was full within a 300m radius of the club. 202.154.105.254 06:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Perth
User:Elliot_k has gone to this one, I think, so he may have an estimate when he gets back. - Borofkin 04:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Bloody trains were stopped after 11.30, which meant i couldnt make it! but some indy crew are there. i'll put a report here later today...

--elliot_k 05:40, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Total
Our estimate for the total, country-wide, all venues, is in the article title, and is currently "hundreds of thousands". Does anyone dispute this? Do you think we can make it more accurate? - Borofkin 04:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

In this news.com.au article ACTU spokesman Ian Wilson says "We expect the final (national) figure will be half a million," - Borofkin 04:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Quarter of a million if they're lucky. Huge turnout in Melbourne, rubbish everywhere else. Josh Parris 06:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. Very substantial crowd in Belmore Park and when the march reached King Street an additional crowd joined it which packed King Street from George Street up to at beyond Castlreagh (3 or 4 blocks at least) --CitizenBruce 06:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Sharan Burrow, President of the ACTU, released an estimate of attendance of 546,000 in total, Australia wide. This was published post event shortly after 3.30pm AEST. Community Protest Against New IR Laws Bigger Than Expected. This can be used as a source for organisers' crowd estimates in capital city rallies and regional meetings. In Melbourne this press release said 210,000. Sky News gave an estimate of 175,000 based on aerial coverage of the protest, which was quoted in The Age.--Tirin 03:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. Feel free to edit the article directly, and remember to attribute the estimates to the ACTU. - Borofkin 04:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I've added the ACTU press release as a source at the bottom of the article. - Borofkin 04:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Greg Combet has claimed 600,000 people nationwide took to the streets to protest against the changes.. As Secretary of the ACTU he would be in a position to tally up all the union estimates of attendance at protest rallies and events. --Tirin 06:21, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Photos
iv got more including one identical to the one at the top :) which i suggested to some dude to take i wonder if it was him. I also have alot more but i have to go work :) o the irony - unsigned comment by Whywhywhy

More Sydney photographs coming up. Including ones of the crowd in Belmore Park, the Unions bus, the South Korean Drummers, Peter Garett, John Robertson (Secretary of Unions NSW) (can someone confirm his name and find a photo to make sure we have the right person when I upload the photo) and Tony Burke (MP who was in the march). Just been busy with some prior commitments. Will upload them soon (just have to pick them out from 500 photos). -- Jasabella 06:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * John Robertson is indeed Secretary of Unions New South Wales. Unless I'm mistaken, he's bald as a bowling ball, and he isn't Peter Garett. We're really looking forward to those photo's, you did a great job on Tuesday. If you can, add them to " " on Commons. There is already one photo in there. - Borofkin 22:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Melbourne Protest section
This section needs to be worked on a bit. Remember that we can only make statements of fact if they are indeed undisputable facts. For example, this sentence: "One of the major changes is the removal of a independently appointed community to decide on minium wage rises and falls which could backfire on the Liberal party if Labour got in on rises in minimum wage promises.". Who says it could backfire? Also how was the "consensus among the marchers" determined? This is just some stuff to think about (and the overseas Wikinews contributors are bound to pull us up on it). Everyone has done bloody great work so far. - Borofkin 04:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Also all the reports of mine come from speaking to random people on public transport.edit how ye see fit. --Whywhywhy 04:19, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I've had a stab at editing it, but there's more to do. Josh Parris 04:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

thanks for everyone who edited this section so that it now looks ten time better.--Whywhywhy 00:05, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Keeping track of original reporting
Everyone who has done original reporting for this article should add a comment under the "Original reporting" section at the top of this talk page, stating which rally you attended, the source for quotes and information that you added to the article (listened to speeches, interviewed people, observed), what means you used to record information (tape recorder, written notes, etc). You should sign your comment, using four tildes ( ~ ). Remember that with orignal reporting, you are the source of information and the means by which facts presented in the article can be verified. - Borofkin 04:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Permission to Use photos from Melbourne Indymedia
Have just spoken to the photographer "takver" of the shots on this melbourne.indymedia page:

Workers march against Howard by Takver Tuesday November 15, 2005 at 02:55 PM

from oceania indymedia irc: i said "hi takver, can wikinews get permission to use yr photos please :)" takver said: "go for it :)"

--elliot_k 05:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * No worries. Note that he is not just giving permission for us to use his photo's - he is giving permission for them to be re-used for any purpose, including commercial activity. Ideally he can upload them to the Commons. - Borofkin 05:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Takver says: "I have no probs with use of my photos under CC licence, as long as I am credited as the photographer, and the source URL is acknowledged" --elliot_k 06:06, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If a photo is available under free license, it should be transwikied to commons... Very glad to have the pics! --Chiacomo &#91;&#91;User_talk:Chiacomo&#124;(talk)]] 06:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yep. The license you want is probably "Creative Commons Attribution 2.5" - just pick it from the drop-down menu when uploading to the commons, and add Takver's details to the comments field. - Borofkin 06:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Time to publish?
I reckon the article's in a fit state to publish. Josh Parris 06:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yep, I reckon it's looking pretty good. Might need to reorganise the pictures a little bit, though. - Borofkin 06:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

OECD and the IMF
What is the source for the OECD and IMF calling for the legislation to be passed? - Borofkin 06:19, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * IMF search http://www.google.com.au/search?q=site%3Aimf.org+workchoice&btnG=Search&meta= reveals zero hits.
 * OECD search http://www.google.com.au/search?q=site%3Aoecd.org+workchoice&btnG=Search&meta= reveals zero hits.
 * I think this is bogus. Josh Parris 06:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hearald Sun article October 11th 2005 "Let's work a miracle': In its Economic Survey of Australia 2004 the OECD said: ``To further encourage participation and favour employment, the industrial relations system also needs to be reformed so as to increase the flexibility of the labour market, reduce employment transaction costs and achieve a closer link between wages and productivity.''
 * http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22Let%27s+work+a+miracle%22&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU zero hits. Not online. Josh Parris
 * http://notes.nt.gov.au/lant/hansard/hansard10.nsf/0/41c451608bdbae8e6925708f000331ae?OpenDocument&Click= But the quote was read into Hansard. Josh Parris

For IMF, see The Australian October 31st IMF head attacks ACTU cheif over wages quote: The IMF's annual review of Australia's economy supported the Howard Government's industrial relations reform. - JamesP
 * http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,17086376,00.html Josh Parris


 * But also in article I have referenced says: "His message ought to be the one the OECD sent earlier this year: don't throw out the baby with bathwater. Australia already has the sixth least restrictive job protection in the Western world, it pointed out. Job security is something it should keep." (How to make the best of a bad lot of law) - this quote indicates perhaps not quite as simple as claimed. --CitizenBruce 06:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. It would be best to quote the organisations directly rather than paraphrasing. And remember that it needs to be in the context of the protest - we don't want to get bogged down presenting a debate about the IR changes. - Borofkin 06:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Actual Quotes from organisation's have been added, see 'Global bank backs work law changes' The Age, Tim Colebatch, September 14 for furhter IMF quotes -- JamesP


 * I think the OECD quote should be removed as it does not relate specifically to the actual legislation and seems to misprepresent the wider view which the article I have referenced indicates. --CitizenBruce 06:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think I agree - I don't really understand it's relavence to the article. Someone could perhaps provide some explanatory sentences to provide context? Otherwise it should probably be removed. - Borofkin 07:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

OECD quote is necessary only because of the Prof's claims to no economic necessity. OECD analysis shows that industrial relations reform is necessary. It's only fair to show their opinion. -- JamesP

New structure is better, more objective. -- James P

Story about the PROTEST and not the issue?
I'd assume the purpose of this article is to report on the PROTEST and not necessarily the debate itself. --elliot_k 06:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm not sure where the line should be drawn here. If we are going to report on the speeches, which contain criticism of the government, then we have to report on the governments response. If we are going to then add expert criticism of the governments argument, then we have to present multiple points of view on the IR changes in general. The article is getting rather long, however. - Borofkin 06:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes it is messy. --CitizenBruce 06:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Photos Page?
Whats the go with a photo section? Can we have a separate page for photos? Whats the protocols on this... I have a bunch of shots from the Melbourne rally (with permission).

--elliot_k 06:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You should upload them all to the Wikimedia Commons, and put them all in the same Category. Then we can link from the article to the category on Commons. - Borofkin 06:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, thanks - will do that now. Might hassle you out for morre help! BTW I'm still waiting on a numbers reportback from my Perth crew. In terms of this article being too long, its a very important story. Aussies hardly ever rally up like this. --elliot_k 06:58, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * No worries, feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regarding the article length, we could always split it into two, with one focussing on protest events, and another one about the wider debate. - Borofkin 07:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Melbourne Pics Uploaded to Commons. --elliot_k 07:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC) ditto--Whywhywhy 09:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Sydney photographs have finally been uploaded to Commons! -- Jasabella 05:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

CitizenBruce, you should have met up with Borofkin and me perhaps? Oh well, maybe next time! Would have been funny if we saw each other without realising and even funnier if we actually have photographs of each other ;-) hehehe (In case you're wondering, I was the crazy Asian girl with a camera around her neck who was running around in slides, painted toenails, black top and a floral print skirt - yes my legs are still aching :-/ Oh, I almost fell out the back of the Unions NSW truck to at some stage too.) -- Jasabella 05:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Location of photos on commons
Okay, the photo's from melbourne can be found on the Wikimedia Commons, here:


 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_IR_Protest_2005-11-15_-_Melbourne

I recommend that any from Sydney be added to a Sydney category, thusly:


 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_IR_Protest_2005-11-15_-_Sydney

- Borofkin 07:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations to all who worked on this article
It is a fantastic piece of reporting. What a job well done. Neutralizer 02:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. That is really superb reporting --Deprifry|+T+ 06:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Category
editprotected 'Category:2005 Australian IR Protest' should be added. Van der Hoorn (talk) 13:46, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅ ♪Tempo di Valse ♪ 22:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

File:100 5958.jpg
Please change the image to Image:Melbourne rally against IR.jpg. It has been renamed at Commons. Körnerbrötchen (talk) 21:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)