Talk:Leaked poll finds 45% of Iraqis support suicide bombers who attack allied forces

Great story
good work. Neutralizer 16:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Great Article
I'm glad to see this has received some space. It's just a shame the BBC thinks Joan Rivers is a more worthy front page subject.

Comments
Some possible changes. I think these can be done "in vivo" since they aren't serious.

1. Soften the tone a bit. A lot of readers may find the article a bit harsh. It's not a serious NPOV thing, just a style issue.

2. Should the title be "poll finds"? Not a big issue - it wasn't ambiguous.

3. Any good quotes?

4. A couple of articles that back up the uncited claim that Iraq has worse standard of living:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_study http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

5. A bit off topic, but interesting. May have a place in the article.

It argues that most suicide bombers are driven by public opion. It is not a flakey article either. It actually has a bit of content. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/299/5612/1534

Wisty 05:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

5. I chopped this: "Iraqis are angered by the damage done to their country by the invading forces, and the decrease in standard of living, in freedom of movement and in safety and security which it has brought. Many Iraqis hope that if the coalition forces can be encouraged to leave, the country can return to normal."

It's not all NPOV. I'm putting bits back.

OK: "Many Iraqis resent the damage that has been done to their country by the invading forces. Many Iraqis believe Iraq has seen a decrease in standard of living, in freedom of movement and in safety and security. Many Iraqis hope that if the coalition forces can be encouraged to leave, the country can return to normal."

It's weasly, but that's the best I can do.

6. "The survey with statements made by UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw and US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that there was widespread support for the invasion of Iraq, and that the occupying powers were improving human rights in the country."

"contradicts" changed to "contrasts" - Straw and Rice weren't saying what the Iraqis think.

Wisty 06:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Methodology?
If you fail to discuss the methodology of the poll then you are just providing a piece of propaganda.


 * Like the US election? Nah, good idea Wisty 06:04, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The poll was leaked. So the methodology is probably still hidden. Wisty 06:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what the obtuse comment about the US election is about, but if the methodology and apparently the source of the poll is not transparent then how can you have a headline proclaiming a figure from it? Don't mistake me: I don't doubt the numbers in context. Really? How many Iraqi women were polled and how many do you think gave honest answers? I have an immediate family member in Iraq as we speak. This weekend he spent in the Kurdish north and based on the tales of their hospitality I think he would disagree with the poll. Now move to Al-Sadr's neighbourhood and you'll get a different number. But, if you just want to run another 'Iraq is a failure' piece think carefully about who you really are hurting -- when the islamo-fascists get control the first people they'll round up are the leftists, the socialists, the marxists, the feminists, the liberals, and on and on... written by 69.23.220.138

Read it: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/299/5612/1534 It's a worry. The puch line is that if a lot of Iraqis support suicide bombers, then the suicide bombing will continue. Which is bad.

So on one hand it may not be responsible to publish this.

On the other hand, I'd say that most potential suicide bombers in Iraq already know that they have support. Maybe it means that the occupation forces need to spend more effort in "winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people". Or maybe the elected government will make things better.

Anyway, I didn't write the article, I'm trying to make it sound less like a slap in the face. And thanks for the comment. Feel free to add any more. Wisty 06:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The information is from a study commissioned by the U.K. military, commissioned from a Univerisity in Iraq. It is part of an ongoing, continuous polling process, according to a military spokesperson. It was reported as being a national study, which in the context would undoubtedly include samples from all major regions and population centres.


 * Beyond that the specifics of the methodology of data gathering and the survey instrument are not known. On the other hand, the statistics presented are the simplest and most robust prevalences. The numbers cited are so clear an indicator of public opinion there is simply no point in arguing with them.


 * Can conclusions be drawn from what we know? yes, but not about Iraq. Three things leap to mind: the US forces and their allies are able to pay for Universities to do population studies (indicating a level of social infrastructure); UK government feels population research on public opinions in Iraq should be classified; persons within the government or military feel the information should not be classified, and have risked their careers and more to leak it. - Amgine / talk 06:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

BBC Coverage
The BBC have absolutely buried the story deep within their political page. Perhaps we would be better served if it was put on the front page in place of "Lord Lichfield gives a masterclass in portrait photography ".

It's true that we don't know the methodology so we should be cautious. Polls should be treated most scrutinously when they deliver results that benifit the people who comissioned them. In this case the results have gone in the opposite direction.

Poll "claims" or "finds"
Are we going to be saying " a new Gallop poll "claims"? in the future? If it's a poll, should not the word be "finds"?. Neutralizer 12:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I will correct the title; if anyone wants to stay with "claims", please change it back. Neutralizer 13:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Changed my mind; but I still think it should be "finds". Neutralizer 13:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. "Claims" sounds like we're whitewashing the poll's results. - Apollyon 13:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think this should be "finds" too. One other detail is can % be used in a title instead of "percent"?  I know a $ in a title is a no-no, but are there other special characters that cause problems? Brianmc 14:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I said "claims". It's not really correct, but neither is "finds". It's a poll. Polls are always a bit inaccurate. But if you say it's a poll, then "finds" is probably closer. Wisty 03:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Where are the big polling companies?
Why aren't they doing,reporting more polls from Iraq? Neutralizer 13:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

82% "strongly opposed" to occupation
Excellent story. Especially surprising (even more surprising than the large minority in favour of suicide attacks) and interesting finding, to my mind, is that 82% of Iraqis "strongly oppose" the occupation. I'm wondering if it might be appropriate to mention this fact in the title? Rcameronw 21:09, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Bias
A "biased" poll... the first sentence is riddled with POV comments. Why is the poll biased? The "liberal" newspapers the poll was reported in seems to me more like a footnote than something in the introductory sentence. Perhaps the liberal newspapers seized the results of the poll because they supported their case, not that the poll was skewed on purpose to be run in liberal papers. 128.227.103.161 14:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

My conservative opinion
I believe we (america) should demand a referendum. Should we stay, or should we leave immediately? If >50% say leave immediately, that's exactly what we should do. I predict things would mostly fall apart, but I doubt a full blown civil war would occur. I think many contractors would pull out, and America would withdrawl our funds earmarked for construction projects. I believe the Iraqi's would eventually reflect upon this decision, and history would learn an important lesson. If the Iraqi's don't want us there, let's leave. Let the Mehdi army, and other millitias sieze control, allow democracy to fail, and allow the Iraqis to say "we never thought things could get so much worse. Please come back in America". Now, before each of you laugh at that last statement, consider that towards the end of the first gulf war, representatives from some of the southern Iraqi cities came out to the coalition forces in the desert, and asked them to come into the city and get rid of Saddam and his army. Such as thing has happened before.

Allow the Iraqi's pride to be their downfall, and for democracy and freedom to fail. Let us respect the will of the people. After all, we can't take down Iran while we are busy in Iraq.