Talk:South American Community of Nations announced at Third South American Summit

Mexico gets out of Latin America
Mexico signed the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America, with which becomes impossible to this country the accession to any kind of further Latin American Union.

Declaration

 * Declaration is being called the "Cusco Declaration" as the summit took place in Cusco.
 * Full title: Declaración del Cusco sobre la Comunidad Sudamericana de Naciones III Cumbre Presidencial Sudamericana
 * Text date: "Cusco, 8 de diciembre de 2004"
 * Full text of Cusco Declaration in Spanish
 * Declaration establishes the South American Community of Nations (see Wikipedia)
 * Common market, common currency, and regional parliament--eventually.

Merger

 * SACN is a merger of two previous trade blocs and three additional countries.
 * "Mercosur or Mercosul (Spanish: Mercado Común del Sur, Portuguese: Mercado Comum do Sul, English: Southern Common Market) is a trading zone among Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay, founded in 1991. Its purpose is to promote free trade and movement of goods and peoples, skills and money, between these countries. Bolivia, Chile, Peru, Venezuela and Mexico have associate member status." Mercosur
 * "The Andean Community (in Spanish: Comunidad Andina, abbreviated CAN) is a trade bloc that comprises the South American countries of Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela. This trade bloc was formerly called the Andean Pact and was started with signing of the Cartagena Agreement in 1969." Andean Community
 * Other countries: Chile, Guyana, Suriname. Guyana and Suriname will not immediately join the community.
 * See Andean Community about timelime for closer cooperation between two blocs

Third South American Summit

 * "The 2004 South American Summit – the third of its kind, after earlier events in Brasília (September 2000) and Guayaquil (July 2002) – was held in Cuzco and Ayacucho, Peru, on 7–9 December 2004." South_American_Summit
 * Future: "The mechanics of the new entity should come out at the First SACN Summit, to be held in Brazil, in March or April of 2005. A constitution is also expected to be drafted in 2005. The Second Summit will be held in Bolivia." South_American_Community_of_Nations

Joint projects

 * '32' or '31' projects worth 'over US$4.2bn' or 'US$4.3bn'.
 * US$700m highway between the Atlantic and Pacific in Brazil and Peru

Statistics

 * Combined population: 366,669,975 (2003). "The region accounted for about 2.7 percent of the world's GDP (or 5.1 percent in PPP GDP) in 2003. The bloc's population totals some 360 million people (5.7% of world population) and its territory covers around 17 million km² (11.4% of world land area)." (WP)
 * GDP: US$2,635,349m (2003)
 * GDP/c: US$7,187 (2003) (NAFTA: US$30,174; US$EU: 24,249)

Quotes

 * "Sooner, rather than later, we shall have a single currency, a single passport... Sooner, rather than later, we shall have a parliament with directly elected representatives for this new nation that we are creating today." — Peruvian President Alejandro Toledo, 8 December 2004. Source unknown, from South American Community of Nations
 * ""With this new community, Latin America will be fortified." Peruvian Foreign Minister Manuel Rodriguez
 * ""We had always foreseen that this South American community would be formed through the gradual convergence of the Andean group and Mercosur," CAN secretary-general Allan Wagner told IPS."
 * "Our ultimate goal, which can hopefully be reached, in time, is the United States of South America." CAN (Andean) Secretary-General Wagner.
 * "North America has been an integrated continent since the 19th century. We have only recently begun this process ourselves. The Atlantic-Pacific gap, which doesn't exist in North America, is dramatic in South America, because of the need to cross the Andes or the Amazon." Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim.
 * "We would like nothing better than to move towards South American integration, but the worst thing we could do would be to ask a child, who has just learned to walk, to run a marathon." Chilean Foreign Ministry Director of International Economic Relations Osvaldo Rosales.
 * "We are reviving the idea of an integrated Latin America, after this objective became fragmented into various regional processes 30 years ago. Now we are going back to that original vision, through the convergence of subregional structures and within the context of globalisation." Wagner.
 * "Guarnieri told IPS that the bloc being created this week in Peru "will need a body responsible for developing programmes and proposals and monitoring progress from a technical and administrative point of view, like the executive commission of the European Union, and we have proposed that SELA serve as its basis.""
 * "This is not done against the United States, or against the European Union. This is done to have greater strength, because it is one thing to be sitting alone, individually, and another very different thing to represent the biggest integrated geographic area of the world, of about 17 million square kilometers." Head of Mercosur Commission - Duhalde
 * "No commercial agreement, even in the sphere of the WTO [World Trade Organization], sets targets. The goals always have more to do with social organization." Ênio Cordeiro, Brazilian Foreign Relations official Department

Graphics


It doesn't say where this comes from. I hope somebody here made it. It's noted in the article that Bolivia and Colombia did not sign, yet they are marked as members in the graphics. Also the label "European union" is confusing. Maybe "to European Union", or simply skip it? --Regebro 09:35, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC) yes, but it is not the European Union. Just a bit of it. A bit of France more specifically. You can just as well mark that square "France". ;) When one area belongs to another country you usually write "To", check a map of the Caribbean and look at Puerto Rico for example. It often sais "To USA" besides it. --Regebro 11:17, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:SACN_member_states.jpg
 * to European Union? What does that mean? The nation indicated is a member of the European Union.
 * Changed: Although the Bolivian and Colombian presidents attended the summit, they did not attend the signing ceremony, this instead being done by representatives. 119 09:44, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Questions/Additions
Was the summit attended by anyone from Brazil? The country is not listed in the president or prime minister list. Lyellin 06:53, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * It was attended by Lula. Fixed. 119 06:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am looking for some information about it. I remember reading an Brazilian newspaper article criticizing the iniciative because the less ambitions projects (Mercosur and Andean Community ) have failed. --Carlosar 02:49, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here are some material for research
I am puting what I could find about the subject till now. --Carlosar 04:09, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

According to AE - Estado de São Paulo, Brazilian newspaper - 08 Dec 2004 Fracasso ronda cúpula da América do Sul:
 * The third meeting of South-American Presidents in Cuzsco (Peru) had less presidents than the previous meeting. Many presidents didn't go to the event and they send mere representatives in their place.
 * reduced auditorium
 * Argentina and Uruguai presidents absentee (they alleged health problems)
 * Ecuador and Mexico absentee
 * Mercosur presidents absentee
 * Banco Nacional de Desenvolvimento Econômico e Social (BNDES) - Brazilian Development Bank - investiments in Bolivia and Ecuador are seen as financial help without return by Brazilian entrepreneurs

According to 10 Dec 2004 Países temem foco anti-EUA em bloco sul-americano - AF Folha de São Paulo, Brazilian newspaper
 * Chile, Colombia, Mexico are afraid of the SACN becoming an anti USA politic bloc. Chile, Colombia and Mexico have good economic agreements with USA, SACN could harm these relationship.

AF - Folha de São Paulo, Brazilian newspaper - 08 Oct 2004 Brasil propõe bloco entre sul-americanos
 * Brazil proposes Soulth-American bloc

(comment) The "ultimate goal, which can hopefully be reached, in time, is the United States of South America," explains Secretary General of the Andean Community Wagner.
 * Or Union of the Socialist Republics of South America ?
 * I think that's your point of view. But if you can present information that qualifies his quote, then please do so. 119
 * You are correct. It is a mere personal opinion(so cannot be published). Anyway, someone(or me if I have time) can investigate it.-- Carlosar 04:19, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Brazilian President Lula is president of the Foro de São Paulo. Look Workers' Party.

America restores a 180-year dream - Granma, Cuban Official Party  newspaper:
 * On December 9, the presidents of South America ratified the ideals of liberty, equality, justice and solidarity subscribed to by the leaders of the peoples independence struggle on this continent., etc.

Presidente de MERCOSUR defiende una Latinoamerica unida sin excluir a Cuba - Granma, Cuban Official Party:
 * El presidente de la Comisión de Representantes del Mercosur, Eduardo Duhalde, reiteró en Brasil su deseo de constituir una comunidad sudamericana que abra paso a una futura Unión Latinoamericana que agrupe a todos los países de la región, incluida Cuba- The president of the Commission of Representatives of the Mercosur, Eduardo Duhalde, reiterated in Brazil his desire to constitute a South American community that opens passage to a future Latin American Union that groups to all the countries of the region, including Cuba.


 * Granma does not seem like a worthwhile source to me. 119 04:09, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Granma maybe is a biased source, and I dont like biased sources either. But since we have accepted Al-Jahzera and Indymedia in past articles, I think it is possible using Granma too. You have to say clearly where the information is coming from and you should prevent endorse the source opinion. Using biased sources: this is a issue we should discuss soon or later if we have not did yet. --Carlosar 04:19, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * 

Radiobras - ABr - Brazilian Government official newspaper:
 * Meeting of presidents will create South American Community of Nations
 * South American Community of Nations incorporates twelve countries and a GDP of US$ 800 billion

What maybe is missing and could be said in some way:
 * SACN is very ambitious and difficult. Maybe little possibilities of success since other minor projects like Mercosur had problems.South America integration is difficult, great economic disputes between Argentina and Brazil for example, great diference in the economy of the countries.
 * SACN:more than an economic bloc like the SACN entusiastics say. An anti-USA bloc maybe (there are clearly an anti-USA feelling in the proposal).
 * Will Cuba be part of the SACN?

"Much abdo about nothing"?
The article seems excessively optimist about something will rather not occurr (see some critics I have put above). I think you should put some of the critics and show the difficulties of creating SACN. --- Carlosar 11:18, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Foreign language sources
What's the policy on foreign language sources? I've read lots of news articles in Spanish about this story. Are they valid references? -- Jeortiz 09:16, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * According to my check I have found no problem. I can read Portuguese and Spanish. Unless someone else find something wrong the article is ok.--Carlosar 20:42, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The article is OK
The article seems ok to me. Maybe it needs some corrections in writting, but I let this work for English speakers. -- Carlosar 20:44, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Protected edit request
Can someone please add the template? Cheers,  Daniel  05:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * done. –Doldrums(talk) 06:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)