Talk:Three men sought after serial rapes in Karmiel, Israel

Comment
The Jerusalem Post write about a gang ? Don't understand the clean up? Jacques Divol 21:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In english, saying simply "Arabs" refers to the ethnic group, not the specific serial rapist gang. I changed it to say "Arab serial rapist gang" which conveys the same information without the ethnic implications.  Nyarlathotep 22:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Brought Forward?
This article was originally written on the 26th of October - and the date has been changed by 3 days. I also don't beleive it is publishable in it's current state - it is far too short to be considered a news article. --Skenmy(t•c•w•i) 09:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Bumps are standard procedure. We've had problems with users filibustering articles.  And bumps keep life sane.  Nyarlathotep 22:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Why "arab" in the title ?
Why is "Arab" specified in the title ? If nationality of the aggressors is significant, the term seems ambiguous.

In what is the "origin" of the aggressors important ? Would it not be just as ridiculous to use a title such as "Dark haired serial rapist gang claims another Israeli victim in Karmiel", or some other attribute ?


 * Unsolved crime stories always give as much information about the assailant(s) as the police want to publish. If dark hair was what the police said, we'd repeat it.  If they gave even more info, like Lebanese, we'd say that too.  Gangs usualy form along ethinc lines, not based upon hair color.  Anyway, here "Arab" appears to be significant infrmation for locals.  Nyarlathotep 13:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If some Israeli rapes a Palestinian, would you agree to having "Jew" in the title? Yes, gangs form along ethnic lines, but that doesn't mean I can get away with referring to OJ as a "homeboy", does it? PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 13:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * (replying to Nyarlathotep's post) that, i don't think, is significant enough for use in the title, especially if the resulting title will turn out as "loaded" as this one. &mdash; Doldrums(talk) 13:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "Jew" isn't a useful identifying trait. We'd say Israeli, white, etc. depending upon the available information.. we'd post a sketch if we had it too.. especially for a serial rapist group.  But I do see one very thing missing from the title, the number of men.  Nyarlathotep 14:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm quite happy to chat about the title, but I think "Karmiel" and "serial rapist" are essential information. Arab & trio are also essential information as the represent the identifying information. BMW driving would be good too, but I couldn't fit it in. Victims ethnicity isn't important, but I wouldn't have known where Karmiel is, and its more information this way.

Yes, I did think about various versions like "Three Arab men rape ..." which further reduce any loadedness, but none said "serial rapist", and that overrides all other concerns.

But thanks for making me think about the title agin, the number of men is extremely important information. Nyarlathotep 14:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What proof exists that she was raped? Have the accused been convicted? if not, we must assume that they are innocent until prven guilty. Also, what proof do you have that they were Arabs? Which court has convicted Arabs in this case? PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 14:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Three arabs sought/wanted/suspected/accused over/in/of/over serial rapes in Karmail, Israel?. &mdash; Doldrums(talk) 14:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Suspected is the most commonly used term. I'm still unsure of how "Arab" makes for a useful identification tag. There are millions of men who may be considered "Arab", it wouldn't be feasible for anyone to check all of them out. Like I said, it's similar to saying "Jew rapes Arab woman" - Millions of Jews, which one are you looking for? PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 14:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Infact, I removed "Arabs" from the original title, replacing it with "Arab serial rapist trio", as pluralizing an ethnicity kinda makes a generalization. So it'll be "Three arab men ..." not "Three arabs ...", big big difference there. But yes, sought is the word that'll make it fly. Plus it makes adding info like "abducted" easier.

I removed the victims ethnicity. If ethnic tensions are ever shown to be a factor in crimes, we'll have a seperate story. Nyarlathotep 14:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

If nobody has any objections, I would like to change the title to Serial rapist trio suspected of raping another Israeli woman in Karmiel for the following two reasons :-
 * Wikinews is not, and has not claimed to be, a judicial authority, and hence it is not upto us to decide whether or not the accused are guilty of raping the woman.
 * There are millions of people who may be considered Arab, and it is highly unlikely that our clarifying the Arabic descent of three men would help anybody catch the alleged criminals. Also, the use of ethnic tags (especially when the alleged crime is still under investigation) reflects badly on the project, especially when reporting crimes. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 14:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Women care about the ethnicity of a serial rapist, period. Only question is if we add BMW driving.

As I tried to explain before, "Arabs" would be racist, "three arab men" is not. Big diffrence. Nyarlathotep 14:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, "suspected" is for when more information is known, "sought" is for about this level of information, i.e. not cought, no suspects, just a little identifying information. Nyarlathotep 14:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Who says the rapes were "brutal", you? Add what you want to the title, it only makes you look like a racist (which I am sure you aren't?). PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) 14:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Use the source, it makes it pretty clear that the abduction & rape were brutal. Nyarlathotep 14:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Brutal is so subjective. One Israeli getting raped is "brutal", 4000 Lebanese civilians being incinerated by phosphorus bombs isn't....PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 14:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The title made me smile: "Three Middle-Eastern men sought after serial rapes in Karmiel, Israel". Upon reading the title, the reader breathes a sigh of relief as he realizes that the alleged rapists did not fly in from Australia.--DCo1 06:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Whether we like it or not, the most important facet of this article is that the victim and alleged perpetrators are of their respective races. Compare: Duke lacrosse season ends, coach resigns. I highly doubt that, if Israeli jews were gang raping Israeli Jews, it would recieve mention in the press. (Nor would, say, Jordanian arabs raping Jordanian arabs.)--DCo1 06:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Rape is rape, irrespective of who is raping whom. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 10:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * We don't have any reason to believe the rapes are racial motivated per se, unlike the case of the Lebenese-Austrailian gang rapes, although race is almost always a factor in gang formation. My assertion was merely that the most important information was "Serial rapist in [city]" followed by identifying information, which is three arabs in a BMW here.  I've backed off a bit about the identifying information in the title, as I believe people will read the article if they see "Serial rapist in [city]".  However, I object to rampant use of "alleged" after she spent time in a hospital.  Nyarlathotep 09:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand your outrage at what happened, but the fact is that until a judicial authority convicts the suspects, or for that matter confirms that a crime has been committed, we have to use the word "alleged" or something to that effect. There are many lawyers out there who would seek out loopholes that would compel a judge to claim a rape has not been committed even in the fact of proof that would otherwise seem irrefutable. Thus, in the interest of NPOV, we must not assume anything till we are informed of the magistrate's decision. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) 10:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It has nothing to do with outrage, its about prevention by letting possible victims know about identifying charateristic. And that is why I don't care about the title anymore, "serial rapist in [city]" is enough to make any woman read the article.  Nyarlathotep 16:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Re Nyarlothotep's comment: you could be right, I have not seen the race of the victim disclosed anyways, so perhaps this case is an exception to the rule, but virtually all the major gang rape stories I can think of involve people of different races (as in the | Mahmudiyah_incident, or the above mentioned Lebanese-Australian rapes, or even the above mentioned Duke University incident.) It isn't that intraracial rape doesn't exist, merely that it isn't as interesting.--DCo1 10:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, they don't give her race, only her nationality (Israeli, I'm not even sure anyone said she was Jewish).
 * Okay, I only know a little but about the subject, but you may be right about gang rapes always being partially about race. I don't know.  Nyarlathotep 16:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Although I understand your point, I still have to point out that there is no proof that the maniacs had racist motives for their crimes. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) 16:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Compromise
I propose a compromise regarding the ethnicity issue- add the "Arab" thing to the article and/or the title, but also add the Israel-relations map showing that the "Arab" world does not recognise Israel's existence. I am sure everyone would agree that the Israeli-recognition issue is relevant to an article that concerns Israel and the "Arabs". PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) 10:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I now see that Pakistan is an "Arab" country.--DCo1 10:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture/caption
What relevance does the caption regarding Arab nations rejecting the existence of Israel have to this article?

--Tom12384 16:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * None. So I removed the irrelevant map. This article does not touch on nations that have refused to recognise Israel.  Events reported on are wholly within Israel. --Brian McNeil / talk 17:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Most "Arab" nations dispute Israel's existence. This article deals with "Arabs". PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) 01:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What's with the quotes, Arabs are Arabs, aren't they? And so what if most Arab nations dispute Israel's existence, what does that have to do with this Article beyond the fact that the perpetratores are suspected to be Arabs? Its like posting a map of Christianity through the world for a story on the European Space Agency because most of Europe identifies itself as Christian.

It seems clear to me that certain users, who seem to have full faith in the indisputablity of Israel's existence, will never allow that map to be put in any article. I cannot waste time o this any more, everyone knows the truth about the Zionist blot irrespective of what Wikinews censors. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) 10:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Why the ""?
How is saying they are Arab racist? When the police are looking for someone in North America they descirbe the person, and the media does too. If the person is white, they say they are looking for a white guy, if they are looking for a black guy, they say that too. They also mention ethnicity if it could be important, such as they are a member of the Chinese or Francophone or whatever community. sure there are millions of Arabs in the world, but there are a lot less in Israel then the world. It also excludes Israeli Jews, which is important as the suspects have been identified as Arabs so wasting time on Jews is pointless unless leads are discovered pointing that the perpetrators may be Jewish and not Arabs.

What I am really wondering though, is why the "" around Arabs? Either the police are searching for Arab suspects or they aren't. An ethnicity doesn't need quotation marks for any reason I can think of except perhaps to imply that they aren't looking for real Arabs, but members of some other ethnic group which is often lumped in with Arabs and called Arab in common usage.


 * I removed the quotes and moved the Arab identification to a sentence attributed to the victim. -- IlyaHaykinson 03:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Their ethnicity has nothing to do with the alleged crime, which is why we won't mention it in the title. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 10:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that mentioning it in the title is unnecessary. -- IlyaHaykinson 17:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Women can comit rape as well. If arab is left out to prevent being racist as in topics further up, shouldn't men be left out of the title too to prevent being sexist? If a gang is ethnically based then their ethnicity is definetly something important.

Who says the gang is based on ethnicity? Maybe they were just a bunch of perverts who got together. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) 09:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

By putting Arab in the title we are suggesting that the rape was baised on ethnicity. Since we don't know that I think the current title works well. --Shaoken 02:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)