Thread:Comments:French Senate vote in support of same-sex marriage/Redefining "marriage" silences ideas that the queer community finds inconvenient./reply (5)

I do not so much see it as a matter of "immoral" or "perverted". I see it as a matter of whether it is permissible or not. All behaviours you listed but for bestiality, necrophilia and paedophilia ought to be legally permissible. They may be morally problematic in certain circumstances: for instance, if someone has made a monogamous commitment to one person, they ought to not be having sex with others without that person's permission. I also find the framing of this as simply being about sexual activity to be potentially problematic: the sort of relationships we are considering mix together sexual, romantic and other behaviour. For a long time, LGBT issues have been reduced to simply being a matter of sex, so I'd rather we avoided that. There will be marriages between same-sex couples where no sex will occur (perhaps between elderly couples).

But, I see a problem with your definitions. In your earlier message, you said that "the marriage norm" opposes a wide variety of behaviour including masturbation and various male-female activities, while in your most recent message you have narrowly defined it to be "a cultural meme or idea or rule that says that male-male and female-female sexual behavior is immoral". So, we have shifted definitions already.

Do people have a right to speak loudly in opposition to same-sex sexual behaviour and/or relationships? Sure. This right is not unlimited. I'd rather we did not have permanent protests outside the homes of gay and lesbian couples or outside gay bars. That right also doesn't mean that the state has to agree with them. An analogy here: we allow protests in Britain from radical Islamists who think that Britain ought to be run along the principles of sharia law. The state is not required to be neutral here: they can allow free speech and advocacy of sharia law, but also take a view as the state in opposing sharia law because, say, it runs counter to women's rights. Similarly, just because there are people who oppose same-sex marriage, there is no requirement that the state be silent in that discussion. There are people who think racism is fine. That isn't a good case against racial anti-discrimination laws, or the state supporting organisations or campaigns against racism.

Freedom of speech also doesn't mean freedom from consequences or an untrammelled right to never have that speech suppressed. Employment constrains speech. If I were to write a long piece critical of my employer, they might be within their rights to not continue employing me. I have worked for the government in the past, and there were similar limitations on what I could say about politicians in public. We see cases of people saying that the passage of same-sex marriage laws would prevent them from teaching their traditionalist views in the classroom. Even though we hire teachers to teach the curriculum rather than their personal views. If it is your strong personal view that Paris is actually in Egypt, you do not to continue being a geography teacher in a publicly-funded school system. The same is true with sexuality: if you are unable to to teach the legal acceptability and equality of gay people in the classroom, then you ought to find a new career.

The thread starts with the title "Redefining "marriage" silences ideas that the queer community finds inconvenient". Perhaps it does. But only as much as the National Curriculum silences the idea that Paris is in Egypt or the Race Relations Act silences the ideas that the non-racist community finds problematic.


 * I will concede that my libertarian views compel me to agree that male-male and female-female living partners should not be second class citizens.

My challenge to you then is: I can go to a registry office in Britain and marry a woman in a purely secular ceremony. I can go to a registry office in Britain and enter a civil partnership with a man in a purely secular ceremony. The two relationships are treated differently by the state. The difference in treatment between the two makes gay people into second class citizens by providing services differently to different citizens. Do you agree with this state of affairs?