User:MDP23/Log Jeff Jacobson 1

17 Feb 2008 19:00:40<@bjweeks> Jeff_J: Give a short discription of yourself and what you do outside of protesting Scientology. 17 Feb 2008 19:01:12<+Jeff_J> I'm a Politcial Science senior at Arizona State right now 17 Feb 2008 19:01:18<+Jeff_J> full-time student 17 Feb 2008 19:01:30<+Jeff_J> I'm 52, from South Dakota 17 Feb 2008 19:01:40<+Jeff_J> was in a cult age 16-22 (not Scientology) 17 Feb 2008 19:01:50<+Jeff_J> got a BA in Religious Studies in 1984 17 Feb 2008 19:02:02<+Jeff_J> worked at Lisa McPherson Trust until it closed 17 Feb 2008 19:02:04<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:02:23<+Jeff_J> I'll say "end" when I think I'm done 17 Feb 2008 19:02:34<@bjweeks> What was your job at the trust? 17 Feb 2008 19:03:01<+Jeff_J> librarian, and researcher. So I helped the people "downstairs" when they needed documents or whatever 17 Feb 2008 19:03:04<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:03:33<@bjweeks> (start Wiki questions) 17 Feb 2008 19:03:37-!- DragonFire_aw is now known as DragonFire1024 17 Feb 2008 19:03:37<@bjweeks> I see from your website that you list your "cult experience" as your once belonging to the United Pentecostal Church. Do you consider all organized religions as "cults"? 17 Feb 2008 19:04:10<+Jeff_J> no. Not all relgions are cults. The word is loaded but I think still useful 17 Feb 2008 19:04:35<+Jeff_J> a cult is totalitarian, has an us vs. them mentality, and thinks they are the sole keepers of The Truth 17 Feb 2008 19:05:01<+Jeff_J> and uses deception, takes advantage of members 17 Feb 2008 19:05:05<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:05:12<@bjweeks> How do you finance your activities in this area? 17 Feb 2008 19:05:17<+Jeff_J> myself. 17 Feb 2008 19:05:32<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:05:37<@bjweeks> What happened to Bob Minton, your former chief financial supporter? 17 Feb 2008 19:05:53<+Jeff_J> that's a sore point for many, but I'll give my version. 17 Feb 2008 19:06:12<+Jeff_J> I think he wasn't prepared for the backlash he'd get from Scientology. 17 Feb 2008 19:06:46<+Jeff_J> so finally he caved into the pressure that Scientology is so good at applying, and to get out from under them he agreed to certain things 17 Feb 2008 19:07:14<+Jeff_J> he changed his testimony in court to be helpful to the church 17 Feb 2008 19:07:23<+Jeff_J> he stopped all anti-scientology activity 17 Feb 2008 19:07:35<+Jeff_J> and he has left the scene. end 17 Feb 2008 19:07:44<@bjweeks> How powerful is the Church of Scientology in your opinion? 17 Feb 2008 19:08:18<+Jeff_J> Their power now comes from their money. I don't believe they have much recruiting ability, nor that many members (maybe 100,000 worldwide) 17 Feb 2008 19:08:34<+Jeff_J> also their ruthlessness gives them power. But I do believe they are on the decline 17 Feb 2008 19:08:39<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:08:43<@bjweeks> Do you feel mocking the silliness of the upper level teachings is helpful? 17 Feb 2008 19:08:48<+Jeff_J> no 17 Feb 2008 19:09:16<+Jeff_J> BUT, I think exposing their secret teachings is good. It's very strange that you have a religion where you can't tell what they believe until you pay them 17 Feb 2008 19:09:38<+Jeff_J> so it's fine by me to expose their teachings so people can decide if that's what they want to get into or not 17 Feb 2008 19:10:09<+Jeff_J> I suppose I've helped make fun of Xenu, though. 17 Feb 2008 19:10:13<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:10:16<@bjweeks> As we understand it, the Church believes their teachings allow you to overcome illness. Does this work? What do they do when it doesn't? 17 Feb 2008 19:10:53<+Jeff_J> Scientology makes abundant medical claims in their writings, yes. But they are not qualified in any way to deal with medical issues. 17 Feb 2008 19:11:18<+Jeff_J> Lisa McPherson was the perfect example of that. They were handling her according to Hubbard's teachings, and she died as a result 17 Feb 2008 19:11:30<+Jeff_J> this is one of the ways Scientology hurts people. It should be stopped. 17 Feb 2008 19:11:54<+Jeff_J> exposing their unscientific gobble-dee gook is hopefully helpful in stopping more harm 17 Feb 2008 19:12:00<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:12:07<@bjweeks> What is COS policy for off-loading its members when they become seriously ill? 17 Feb 2008 19:12:45<+Jeff_J> I'm not sure of the answer to that. I've heard of "off-loading" where there have been reported cases that they've kicked out people who are more a burden than a help 17 Feb 2008 19:13:15<+Jeff_J> and from what I know, they have no retirement plan for long-time employees or Sea Orgers. 17 Feb 2008 19:13:23<+Jeff_J> I'll give one example 17 Feb 2008 19:13:39<+Jeff_J> Heber Jentzch's wife, Yvonne, got cancer. She died at a young age 17 Feb 2008 19:13:50<+Jeff_J> they treated it as if she chose to do that. 17 Feb 2008 19:14:17<+Jeff_J> in their obituaries they say "we look forward to X's soon return". They believe in reincarnation 17 Feb 2008 19:14:23<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:14:33<@bjweeks> What is your key issue with the Church having tax exempt status within the United States? 17 Feb 2008 19:15:02<+Jeff_J> 1) they got it by pressuring the IRS rather than legitimately 17 Feb 2008 19:15:12<+Jeff_J> 2) they aren't qualified 17 Feb 2008 19:15:41<+Jeff_J> 3) they conducted the largest infiltration of the federal government in US history, then that government gives them tax exemption? 17 Feb 2008 19:16:05<+Jeff_J> these are the same people that were there back then. Kendrick Moxon was part of Operation Snow White and he's still a Scientology attorney 17 Feb 2008 19:16:13<+Jeff_J> many reasons. 17 Feb 2008 19:16:33<+Jeff_J> the Sklar case, and the Hernandez Supreme Court ruling also de-legitimize their tax exemption 17 Feb 2008 19:16:38<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:16:47<@bjweeks> Why mock an organization that has members who believe it has helped them? 17 Feb 2008 19:17:13<+Jeff_J> I hope we don't mock. I hope we inform, expose, and educate. 17 Feb 2008 19:17:50<+Jeff_J> It's easy to make fun of Xenu and that, and I suppose I'm guilty of doing that too. But the goal of critics is to inform, not mock. 17 Feb 2008 19:17:51<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:17:58<@bjweeks> Some people claim Scientology has worked for them, why should they be persecuted or hounded, for what after all is free choice of belief? 17 Feb 2008 19:18:24<+Jeff_J> again, critics aren't (I hope) persecuting anyone. 17 Feb 2008 19:19:00<+Jeff_J> it's to inform. I've seen in several of the Anonymous protest videos where Anons say they're not their to ridicule the beliefs but to complain about their actions. 17 Feb 2008 19:19:04<+Jeff_J> that's a correct stance. 17 Feb 2008 19:19:05<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:19:10<@bjweeks> It is claimed by some anti-Cos campaigns that some Scientology doctrine is flawed or inconsistent, could not the same be said of the arguments put forward by those campaigns. (or indeed the idealogical doctrines of any number of other religions)? 17 Feb 2008 19:20:21<+Jeff_J> I'm a Christian. I actually like reading about the inconsistencies of my religion, so I can understand it better. If any organization promotes some belief or teaching, then it's fine to point out inconsistenceis 17 Feb 2008 19:20:27<+Jeff_J> in fact, it's good 17 Feb 2008 19:20:50<+Jeff_J> I just happen to know alot about Scientology, so that's what I deal with. 17 Feb 2008 19:20:52<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:20:58<@bjweeks> The German Government continues to pursue it's investigation into CoS, why should law enforcement waste time on such investigations? 17 Feb 2008 19:21:12<+Jeff_J> Obviously, they don't think they're wasting their time 17 Feb 2008 19:21:55<+Jeff_J> if there is evidence of illegality, it should be pursued. Remember Operation Snow White, for example. Scientology railed against the FBI as being anti-religion and bigoted when the raids happened 17 Feb 2008 19:22:00<+Jeff_J> yet the FBI turned out to be right 17 Feb 2008 19:22:01<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:22:06<@bjweeks> One aspect of Scientology, is a rejection of modern psychiatry, would you not agree that even the best of shrinks can still get things badly wrong? (even when implementing so called ethical practices)? 17 Feb 2008 19:22:52<+Jeff_J> psychiatry definitely has problems. And if people think that's something that should be researched, great. 17 Feb 2008 19:23:25<+Jeff_J> but I deal with Scientology. They reject psychiatry so much that they made a video of themselves blowing up psychiatry with a grenade 17 Feb 2008 19:23:44<+Jeff_J> their goal is to eradicate psychiatry. 17 Feb 2008 19:24:06<+Jeff_J> as a whole group, not just get rid of the bad practices 17 Feb 2008 19:24:10<+Jeff_J> that's wrong 17 Feb 2008 19:24:14<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:24:18<@bjweeks> When an organisation faces an ideological challenge from specific individuals, is it not reasonable to have sufficient information to mount a robust defence? 17 Feb 2008 19:24:53<+Jeff_J> is this referring to Scientology defending itself I guess? 17 Feb 2008 19:25:07<+Jeff_J> Hopefully, the information being used in defense is correct information 17 Feb 2008 19:25:09<@bjweeks> Yes. 17 Feb 2008 19:25:35<+Jeff_J> And sure, I've been on radio with a Scientologist before. I enjoy it when they debate. 17 Feb 2008 19:25:51<+Jeff_J> but that's very seldom, unfortunately. If you could set up a debate I'd love it 17 Feb 2008 19:26:05<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:26:14<@bjweeks> How does campaigning against CoS materially differ from 'hate crimes' as defined by many laws? 17 Feb 2008 19:26:50<+Jeff_J> critics of Scientology are more like whistleblowers or muckraking journalists 17 Feb 2008 19:27:04<+Jeff_J> we're not doing it out of hate. 17 Feb 2008 19:27:17<+Jeff_J> we're doing it out of concern for the truth 17 Feb 2008 19:27:34<+Jeff_J> people get hurt so we try to prevent it 17 Feb 2008 19:28:06<+Jeff_J> Ted Kennedy eulogized his brother Robert saying "he saw a wrong, and tried to right it." I think that's what critics are doing. It's not a hate crime to expose wrong. 17 Feb 2008 19:28:08<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:28:13<@bjweeks> If the campaigners are presenting genuine arguments, why has there not been more action from governments (in particular the United States)? 17 Feb 2008 19:28:41<+Jeff_J> Because governments sometimes suck? 17 Feb 2008 19:28:44<+Jeff_J> short answer : 17 Feb 2008 19:28:45<+Jeff_J> :) 17 Feb 2008 19:28:51<+Jeff_J> but really 17 Feb 2008 19:29:05<+Jeff_J> on xenutv.com there's an interview with Ray Emmons of teh Clearwater Police 17 Feb 2008 19:29:18<+Jeff_J> he said he compiled a lot of information about Scientology, then presented it to the feds 17 Feb 2008 19:29:29<+Jeff_J> their response; "will they come after me?" 17 Feb 2008 19:29:38<+Jeff_J> so he got nowhere 17 Feb 2008 19:29:44<+Jeff_J> part of it is actual fear 17 Feb 2008 19:30:05<+Jeff_J> part of it is the "religious cloaking" where the government doesn't want to be seen going after a religion 17 Feb 2008 19:30:15<+Jeff_J> part of it is incompetence, imho 17 Feb 2008 19:30:40<+Jeff_J> but remember there HAVE been governmental charges against Scientology, even in the Lisa McPherson case 17 Feb 2008 19:30:43<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:30:50<@bjweeks> CoS has fought and won legal actions, juries cannot be that easy to sway? 17 Feb 2008 19:31:10<+Jeff_J> I can't think of many cases that Scientology actually won. 17 Feb 2008 19:31:17<+Jeff_J> you'd have to give me a couple of cases 17 Feb 2008 19:31:35<+Jeff_J> generally, Scientology sues in civil court to harass and intimidate, not even to win anyway 17 Feb 2008 19:31:53<+Jeff_J> so I'd need a specific case to discuss here I guess... 17 Feb 2008 19:32:01<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:32:06<@bjweeks> Did you actually know Lisa? Or any of her family? 17 Feb 2008 19:32:22<+Jeff_J> No, I first heard of Lisa about one year after she died. 17 Feb 2008 19:32:36<+Jeff_J> I have met her cousin, her aunts and uncle. They are all very nice. 17 Feb 2008 19:32:46<+Jeff_J> Lisa's mom died about one month after Lisa did 17 Feb 2008 19:32:58<+Jeff_J> her brother and dad died several years before she did 17 Feb 2008 19:33:00<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:33:06<@bjweeks> # Isn't it disrespectful of Lisa's memory to use her memory for purposes so clearly counter to her known beliefs? 17 Feb 2008 19:33:29<+Jeff_J> My question there; what were her beliefs when she was being held against her will in her last days? 17 Feb 2008 19:33:52<+Jeff_J> My suspicion is she changed her mind about Scientology. I know I would have. 17 Feb 2008 19:34:18<+Jeff_J> But her friend, Kelli Davis, said she had talked to Lisa not long before she died, and Kelly thought that Lisa was implying that she was leaving Scientology. 17 Feb 2008 19:34:35<+Jeff_J> so my opinion is that Lisa's beliefs in her last days was that Scientology sucked 17 Feb 2008 19:34:44<+Jeff_J> and I will go with that. 17 Feb 2008 19:34:45<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:34:49<@bjweeks> Is it possible to bring murder or manslaughter charges against CoS again? 17 Feb 2008 19:35:30<+Jeff_J> IANAL but there's no statute of limitations for murder. I hope that will happen some day. Perhaps some of the people involved will come forward with information compelling to a prosecutor 17 Feb 2008 19:35:34<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:35:40<@bjweeks> Do you know any details about the 2004 settlement with Lisa's relatives? Is it true that they have not yet received any money from this settlement with the Church of Scientology? 17 Feb 2008 19:36:09<+Jeff_J> On lisamcpherson.org is a statement from Lisa's family after their "settlement" of the civil suit. 17 Feb 2008 19:36:40<+Jeff_J> I do not know for sure. I believe the court case is still listed as active. As far as whether they were paid, I do not know. 17 Feb 2008 19:36:59<+Jeff_J> the assumption was that it was over though. 17 Feb 2008 19:36:59<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:37:03<@bjweeks> What do you expect Project Chanology to accomplish and when? 17 Feb 2008 19:37:24<+Jeff_J> I am not an Anon, and know little about the movement. 17 Feb 2008 19:37:50<+Jeff_J> But I was extremely impressed that Anonymous brought out thousands of people to protest around the world on short notice 17 Feb 2008 19:38:05<+Jeff_J> from what I've seen, I believe they can accomplish a lot. 17 Feb 2008 19:38:42<+Jeff_J> I hope a few more protests, then work on Scientology's tax exemption, which I believe is a very vulnerable area for Scientology. 17 Feb 2008 19:39:00<+Jeff_J> Project Chanology is a strong force with able people. It can do a lot. 17 Feb 2008 19:39:01<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:39:05<@bjweeks> Anonymous utilized criminal tactics, why should such organizations be trusted are regarded as credible? 17 Feb 2008 19:39:25<@bjweeks> s/are/and I think 17 Feb 2008 19:39:33<+Jeff_J> us long-time critics were initially very frightened of Anonymous 17 Feb 2008 19:39:44<+Jeff_J> you can tell that from Wise Beard Man's first video 17 Feb 2008 19:40:25<+Jeff_J> but since then it appears that Anonymous has dropped the original things we were seeing. 17 Feb 2008 19:40:50<+Jeff_J> So I see it as self-policing happened and things are on track now. 17 Feb 2008 19:41:16<+Jeff_J> I do not condone anything but peaceful, legal methods. And now Anonymous is promoting that as well, so I am happy. 17 Feb 2008 19:41:20<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:41:28<@bjweeks> What should be the next step for the Anonymous' movement? 17 Feb 2008 19:42:23<+Jeff_J> Wow. That's not for me to say. I'm not a part of it. But I do hope they will do as they have been, which is listening to us who have been in the field for a long time. 17 Feb 2008 19:42:39<+Jeff_J> You can listen and learn from what we've done, then decide where to go from here. 17 Feb 2008 19:42:56<+Jeff_J> My one wish would be to go after Scientology's tax exempt status in the US. 17 Feb 2008 19:43:15<+Jeff_J> Otherwise I have confidence that Anonymous will find the right path. 17 Feb 2008 19:43:15<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:43:40<@bjweeks> My favorite from the rejected questions. What are your crimes? 17 Feb 2008 19:43:54<+Jeff_J> religiousfreedomwatch.org tried to find my crimes 17 Feb 2008 19:44:04<+Jeff_J> most of what they came up with is about my dad. 17 Feb 2008 19:44:14<+Jeff_J> so I like to tell people I'm Scientology-approved! 17 Feb 2008 19:44:19<+Jeff_J> they couldn't find any crimes :) 17 Feb 2008 19:44:22<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:45:13<@bjweeks> That is all the preprared questions, nobody has queried my any questions. Last call for audience questions. 17 Feb 2008 19:45:19<+Jeff_J> ok 17 Feb 2008 19:46:32<@bjweeks> What keeps you going? And how much fair game have you got got? 17 Feb 2008 19:47:05<+Jeff_J> I've been deposed 3 times by Scientology attornies. My home has been picketed. My business has been picketed twice 17 Feb 2008 19:47:17<+Jeff_J> In Clearwater I was followed sometimes daily by PIs. 17 Feb 2008 19:47:36<+Jeff_J> Lynn Farney yelled at me "we will raid you and sue you! You are on notice!" after one deposition 17 Feb 2008 19:47:59<+Jeff_J> I've had my neighborhood leafleted with flyers calling me a bigot 17 Feb 2008 19:48:22<+Jeff_J> what keeps me going is that Scientology hurts people. When they stop hurting people, I'll stop bugging them. 17 Feb 2008 19:48:24<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:48:37<@bjweeks> What advice would you give to those who get "Fair Gamed"? 17 Feb 2008 19:49:13<+Jeff_J> go to the police right away. keep a record of everything. carry a video camera. I always had a videocamera with me in Clearwater, even going to the grocery store. 17 Feb 2008 19:49:33<+Jeff_J> And another thing I liked to do is post everything that happened online 17 Feb 2008 19:49:48<+Jeff_J> one time I posted "if I disappear, here's the plate number of a car that's been following me..." 17 Feb 2008 19:49:50<+Jeff_J> end 17 Feb 2008 19:50:24<@bjweeks> That is all the audience questions. I'd like to thank you on behalf of myself and Wikinews for doing this interview. 17 Feb 2008 19:50:33<+Jeff_J> thank you! 17 Feb 2008 19:50:36<+Jeff_J> any time 17 Feb 2008 19:50:55<+Jeff_J> if anybody wants more specifics they can email me 17 Feb 2008 19:51:06<@brianmc> we may ask you for comment on future stories, but that'd be by email 17 Feb 2008 19:51:14<+Jeff_J> ok