User talk:Rl6789/George H. W. Bush charged with war crimes during visit to Iceland

What have been the developments since? The charges have been filed, but what about indictment? -- bullitnutz (T)/(C) 05:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Wait for more info before deletion
If this news is true, there's no reason to delete it even if the author is the one who charged Bush (we need to note that somewhere).

May be someone with wikinews Credentials could ask to Islandic ambassy before any deletion in order to now if islandic justice is taking it seriously ?


 * Thanks for giving this news piece a chance in its third incarnation here. Two times it was summarily deleted, because parts of it was said to be violating copyright, but without exlplaining how. The rest of the article could have been left in place, if need be like now with a deletion tag. I admit that the first article quoted too much of the press release, though. But the issuer of a press release will be, especially in case of politics like here, all too happy if it is cited extensively. More a question of style and perhpas NPOV than copyright.  I can see the point that people want to get this story confirmed from other sources than the leader of the group that brought the charges before Icelandic police.  I think the idea of contacting Icelandic authorities might be fruitful. Other possibilities are to contacft NFS / visir or talk to well known people that are in the same newtworks as Elias Davidsson, see below.
 * In the two first attempts at publishingh this news-item, I put in the follwing URL from Free Market News as a reference, to show that another source than "radical /anti-war" news sites and a major Icelandic broadcaster had brought the story, but then some admin found that my text was breaching copyright, solely for referring to that publication, it seems.   http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=16209


 * Some other references / URLs are :
 * http://www.brusselstribunal.org/Lawsuits.htm
 * http://www.brusselstribunal.org/index.htm ( Some of the "brothers in faith" of Elias Davidsson  - a rather impressive list, in a way )
 * http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/criminal-charges-filed-against-george-hw-bush-sr-in-iceland


 * As to allegations that Elias Davidsson is only interested in promoting himself, or as the deletion notice says "obvious vanity cruft", I have missed the arguments supporting that notion. If vanity is your game there are much easier ways, to boost it. Elias Davidsson is, I guess, a genuine peace activist and an intellectual.
 * Here is an article of his, on a site hosted by a man who has been working extensively for the UN Michel Chossudovsky: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/DAV401A.html   Also the following could be worth checking out: http://cilp.nellco.org/cilp/doc_server.cfm?filepath=2003/cilp1107.pdf (search for Elias ). An then :  http://www.aldeilis.net/price.html    Perhaps Noam Chomsky would be willing to "vouch" for Elias Davidsson ?


 * Regarding whether Icelandic authorities take this seriously, I would guess that some of the persons working for the authorities recognise that the charges are real, based on knowledge of international law, and might warrant closer scrutiny. But  although Iceland's relations with US are a bit tense now, after they withdrew from the military base at Keflavik, a bit abruptly, I think Icelandic authorities value the "friendship" with the US highly, and will not risk a conflict. The charges will not lead to a trial, and besides, George H. W. Bush has left the country several days ago, so they are obviously not going to arrest him, and so there is "no point" in indictment.  --Rl6789 00:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Icelandic source
Is there an English translation (or version) available for the Icelandic source? --R2b2 00:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No translation available, and with discussion about copyright in fresh memory, I will not post a translation here :-) I'll  chance relating the main points though : The news item says that Davidsson has done a meticulous work in writing the document, and that he is a self-educated specialist in international law that gets invited to international conferences, and has published in international journals. His opinion, based on this expertise, is that Iceland had an obligation to arrest Bush while in Iceland and keep him in the country while the charges would be investigated. Alternatively he would be sent to another country where investigations and trials would take place. I guess that the Hague would be one of the places that he has in mind. --Rl6789 01:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Bush family's wealth seizable?
These articles indicate the Bush family fortune was made by financing/supplying Hitler as well as through use of concentration camp labour. "The two Holocaust survivors suing the US government and the Bush family for a total of $40bn in compensation claim both materially benefited from Auschwitz slave labour during the second world war." Would these be useful as background?

  

Neutralizer 02:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Delete it Until better Source
This article has no source. It is apparently vanity cruft. Until there is confirmation from an actual news source, it should remain deleted. The autor cites himself as a source. What could be worse than that? Jehochman 04:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've removed the speedy delete flag as I don't think (from my reading) that it meets the speedy delete guidelines (there is a source - it may not necessarily be a good one but...) If you think it should be deleted, I suggest that a delete request be made so that it can be fully discussed and decided on once and for all... --R2b2 04:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Which author cites himself as a source ? The author of the wikinews article is not the same person as the tertiary  person in the news-story, the person who penned the charges against Bush sr.  But on the internet such things are of course often very diffucult to prove..  --Rl6789 01:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Userfied
Until independent sources can be established, I'll be treating this article as an editorial. As such, I have userfied it to the original writer's user space. —     06:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Please be guided by WN:NOT
According to WN:NOT item 5 : "Wikinews is not a theater of war. Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter in an intelligent manner, and engage in polite discussion. Do not create or edit articles just to prove a point." I must say I fell these prociples have been broken by certain editors. I also have serious doubts that such stringency is the norm. I shall admit that I am new to Wikinews though. --Rl6789 01:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Independent sources
Those of you that want independent sources, can you bring forward some constructive suggestions ? What are the criteria for independent sources ? Must they be mainstream media and must they be in English ?

Working accordin to the criteria, will anyone be willing to put some effort into checking with Icelandic authorities ? Should I, or others go to the water cooler and ask for assistance there ?

Or contacting some of the networks or well-known persons mentioned earlier ? Or call the Icelandic news outlet and ask for an official translation, or better a follow-up article in English ? Or contact a techer of Icelandic and ask for a translation. Such approaches seem to be the only way forward. The main stream media will not publish the news because the news do "not fit" with their view of the world. If the news can be thus confirmed the story potentially could be little scoop for Wikinews, I'd think ?

And of course this is not only about this particular news item, but about the fact that some news are deemed "unfit" by mainstream media. In my mind, making this mainstream media barrier easier to transcend, could be one of the main assets / missions of Wikinews. --Rl6789 01:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Another twist to the story, to meet critique ?
I came to think of how it was for instance when Bush and Blair said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Very difficult to get independent sources. But of course it is/was newsworthy, and the news can be published without checking the facts by not asserting that Iraq has WMD, but asserting that those two leaders/administrations claim that ... In the same way, the news here could be "Icelandic group claims to have charged Bush sr. with war crimes". or if you will/insist : "Icelandic citizen claims,,,"   --Rl6789 01:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)