Wikinews:IRC workshop/April 24, 2011

 [20:06:54] * pizero claps xyr hands firmly, and counts how many times the echo bounces back across the empty chamber [20:09:31] < MC8 > ECHO [20:09:32] < MC8 > echo [20:09:34] < MC8 > echo [20:09:35] < MC8 > ech [20:09:36] < MC8 > ec [20:09:37] < MC8 > e [20:09:38] < MC8 >. [20:24:04] --> BarkingFish has joined this channel (~thor@wikipedia/BarkingFish). [20:26:16] < BarkingFish > Well this is a lively debate, isn't it? [20:26:20] < BarkingFish > Where is everybody? [20:26:40] < MC8 > Oh, is it meant to have started? [20:26:50] < BarkingFish > Yes, 20 minutes ago [20:27:02] * MC8 got all the timezones mixed up [20:27:04] < BarkingFish > 20H UTC is 21H British Summer Time [20:27:13] < BarkingFish > it's now 21.23 [20:27:22] < MC8 > Well, I actually got the 24h clock mixed up [20:27:37] * MC8 has missed trains based on misunderstanding 24h clocks [20:27:37] <-- wn-log has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [20:28:01] --> wn-log has joined this channel (~wn-log@li187-123.members.linode.com). [20:28:02] <-- wn-log has left this server (Changing host). [20:28:02] --> wn-log has joined this channel (~wn-log@wikimedia/Microchip08/bot/Picochip08). [20:28:02] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v wn-log [20:28:51] < MC8 > My contribution so far is to try and wrest control of #wikinews-en-admins [20:28:59] < MC8 > It's not working very well [20:29:07] --> Badmin has joined this channel (~Sandman@wikinews/Blood-Red-Sandman). [20:29:16] < BarkingFish > evening Badmin :) [20:29:24] < Badmin > hey [20:29:31] --> dendodge has joined this channel (~dendodge@wikinews/Dendodge). [20:30:06] < BarkingFish > Anyone wishing to view the agenda for this evenings meeting, please go to http://enwn.net/492B0 [20:30:09] * MC8 needs to find a better log bot  [20:30:18] < BarkingFish > I know it's in the topic, but how many of us read it? :) [20:30:41] *** MC8 set the channel topic to "Welcome to the Wikinews Workshop! Everyone is welcome to make and discuss suggestions for improving Wikinews here. Please be respectful of others. | This channel is publicly logged. | Improving PR amongst other Wikimedia projects. How do we recruit more users and make ourselves more attractive for prospective contributors?". [20:31:01] < dendodge > The agenda has one thing on it... [20:31:20] < MC8 > this is even worse planned that the bbq I went to last night [20:31:22] < pizero > Stupid question: are we logging yet? [20:31:30] < MC8 > !help [20:31:30]  This channel is publicly logged at http://chippy.ch/logs – to say something off-the-record, say !off at any point during the message. [20:31:30]  Anyone can restart the (rather rudimentary) bot if needed; contact MC8 for details. [20:31:30]  [20:31:45] < MC8 > ^ [20:31:51] < pizero > Hm. [20:31:53] < MC8 > (yes) [20:32:02] < MC8 > If the bot decides to behave this time [20:32:10] < Badmin > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Blood_Red_Sandman - I've been told of a specific user to possibly recruit [20:32:14] < dendodge > !off I like cheese. [20:32:56] < BarkingFish > Well this is a small turnout, let's hope we can make some use of the time. [20:33:54] < BarkingFish > So, improving PR among other WMF projects. Funnily enough, I was discussing this last night with geniice in #wikipedia-en [20:33:58] < dendodge > !off I propose that we add to the agenda: Tina O'Brien or Amy Pond? 9_9 [20:33:58] <-- wn-log has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [20:34:32] < MC8 > bad bot [20:34:40] < dendodge > heh [20:34:52] < pizero > Laughter is good exercise, though. [20:34:53] --> wn-log has joined this channel (~wn-log@li187-123.members.linode.com). [20:34:54] <-- wn-log has left this server (Changing host). [20:34:54] --> wn-log has joined this channel (~wn-log@wikimedia/Microchip08/bot/Picochip08). [20:34:54] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v wn-log [20:34:56] * MC8 just stuck a link to here in the site notice [20:35:00] *** ChanServ sets the channel topic to "Welcome to the Wikinews Workshop! Everyone is welcome to make and discuss suggestions for improving Wikinews here. Please be respectful of others. | This channel is publicly logged. | Improving PR amongst other Wikimedia projects. How do we recruit more users and make ourselves more attractive for prospective contributors? | Tina O'Brien or Amy Pond?". [20:35:01] < dendodge > Is the meeting on hold while we wait for the bot to finish its tea break? [20:35:14] < Badmin > I mean, uh, this is very serious. [20:35:15] < dendodge > Oh, it's back :P [20:35:17] < MC8 > nah, I expect most people are logging in here [20:35:30] < BarkingFish > Apparently, we produce what geniice refers to as "churnalism" - that is, taking everyone else's work and simply rehashing it when it's already out there. [20:35:46] < Badmin > ...Like Wikipedia? [20:35:47] < dendodge > Well, we do :P [20:35:57] < dendodge > We need OR, and lots of it. [20:36:04] < BarkingFish > This is one of the reasons why Wikipedia doesn't view us in a very good light. [20:36:20] < dendodge > Because we do what they do, but more reliably? [20:36:26] < MC8 > "Hey, come visit Wikinews! We vomit up other news sources under a free licence!" [20:36:26] < MC8 > ] [20:36:29] < Badmin > Side-note: I have major OR in the works, but for legal reasons exactly what cannot be revealed yet. [20:36:56] < pizero > Quality OR is massive work *and* requires that you already know what you're doing (from writing synthesis). [20:37:44] < Badmin > Well, a little OR is easy for many stories - think of someone at least tangentially able to comment, give their press office a ring or email. [20:38:01] < Badmin > We should do more of that 'base' OR as well as the occasional major stuff. [20:38:23] < MC8 > BarkingFish: your bug went up to critical/highest, btw [20:38:29] < BarkingFish > yes, I saw [20:38:30] < dendodge > We should be aiming to get some OR in ~75% of our stories, really. [20:38:33] < BarkingFish > Max put it up there [20:38:33] <-- wn-log has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [20:38:38] < pizero > It's easy for a veteran Wikinewsie to say it's "easy". [20:38:43] * MC8 gives up with the bot [20:38:47] < dendodge > Even if it's just, "Person X told Wikinews..." [20:38:54] < Badmin > MC8: For the benefit of people reading the log some time later, please explain what bug. [20:39:06] < BarkingFish > Anyway, just as an example, I'd like to show you 2 responses I got during the discussion - one from Prodego, one from Geniice. [20:39:17] < BarkingFish > Prodego> BarkingFish: so should we link to the article published by professional journalists, or by people editing a wiki? [20:39:17] < BarkingFish > BarkingFish the problem is that wikinews' niche is already filled by blogs and indymedia [20:39:18] < MC8 > 28685 [20:39:31] < Badmin > lol blogs [20:39:41] --> lustre has joined this channel (~jbeebz@wikimedia/fetchcomms). [20:39:42] < dendodge > Since when have blogs had NPoV? [20:39:47] < BarkingFish > Someone even suggested that the WMF should close Wikinews [20:39:48] < Badmin > (that's about all I have to say about that) [20:40:03] < pizero > *Bad* OR is easy, and if we encourage a lot of OR, that's what we'll get. Project standards will start down a slippery slope... [20:40:13] < lustre > Someone tell me why a workshop is being held on IRC? [20:40:14] < dendodge > Wikinews doesn't need closing. It just needs to be refocused. [20:40:31] < dendodge > lustre: So we can discuss things quickly and easily? [20:40:38] < lustre > Informally, then? [20:40:43] < pizero > dendoge: Since never. [20:40:46] < lustre > I mean, what exactly is the goal of this? [20:40:52] < dendodge > No, it's formal in here. [20:40:55] < lustre > Everything official will need to be repeated onwiki, anyway. [20:41:00] < dendodge > Badsically, we discuss ideas. [20:41:06] < dendodge > That's why it has public logs. [20:41:06] < Badmin > This is why we don't listen to the criticism - because it's rubbish. We need *decent* criticism, and frankly we can supply much of that ourselves. [20:41:10] < lustre > IRC doesn't hold weight, despite the fact that the WMF board meets on it. [20:41:15] < dendodge > That's why it has public logs. [20:41:23] < lustre > dendodge, it's still no excuse for onwiki discussion. [20:41:25] < dendodge > People can read the logs, and then commend on what was said. [20:41:32] < dendodge > *comment [20:41:50] < Badmin > The feedback from the journalism students will be most interesting. [20:41:51] < BarkingFish > well how's this for criticism [20:42:02] < BarkingFish > "accept that wikinews can never do more than rehash the work of real journalists so it's utterly pointless" [20:42:12] < dendodge > Yes, I'd be interested in what the journalism students have to say. [20:42:18] < lustre > Wikinews was a horrible idea. [20:42:20] < dendodge > We can do our own OR. [20:42:24] < lustre > Who proposed it? [20:42:26] < Badmin > Yeah, which is why we ignore most of it BFish. [20:42:40] < MC8 > lustre: andrea iirc, don't quote me on that [20:42:40] < dendodge > lustre: The original proposal was from an anon IP. [20:42:40] < Badmin > lustre: Are you here to do anything constructive? [20:42:44] < lustre > Yes. [20:42:45] < BarkingFish > The point is, Badmin - we shouldn't be ignoring it. [20:42:47] < lustre > I have lots of criticism. [20:42:51] < dendodge > Erik Möller refined it, IIRC. [20:42:54] < lustre > Ugh, anons ruining life. [20:42:55] < BarkingFish > I got a lot of suggestions last night. [20:43:20] < BarkingFish > "We need to focus on OR, since mixing it with the kind of churnalism we turn out kinda devalues the OR aspect" [20:43:31] < dendodge > We do need to focus on OR. [20:43:37] < dendodge > I've been saying that for a long time. [20:43:41] < lustre > It's hard when you only have 20 active editors. [20:43:43] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Badmin [20:43:45] < lustre > But yes, it's ncessary. [20:43:50] < lustre > necessary* [20:43:57] < BarkingFish > "Anyone with a couple of hours to spare could walk into a court tomorrow and pick up 5 to 10 newsworthy stories" [20:44:03] < dendodge > We need to work on in-depth, collaborative, OR stories. [20:44:14] < lustre > The problem is that no one likes reviewing long articles. [20:44:20] < BarkingFish > dendodge: Well we saw one recently, the photojournalist deaths one. [20:44:21] < Badmin > BarkingFish: That, OTOH, is a very good comment [20:44:29] < dendodge > That's where the wiki model will be an advantage. Collaboration. [20:44:36] *** ChanServ sets mode: -o Badmin [20:44:42] < lustre > We don't have enough users to get the good stuff published. [20:45:07] < Badmin > (well, not anyone. I can't walk to Edinburgh or Newcastle to get to a decent court) [20:45:12] < BarkingFish > I think the etherpad experiment between AutisticPsycho, MC8, and myself was a good example of constructive, active collaboration [20:45:17] < Badmin > (but I get the point) [20:45:25] < MC8 > It's something I'd like to repeat [20:45:35] < dendodge > I spent two days in the local Mags once. The most interesting case was a lady who stole some ham from Asda. [20:45:45] < BarkingFish > lustre: If the other projects would stop putting us down as half baked and promote our work, maybe we'd have more users [20:45:59] < Badmin > dendodge: I said decent for a reason :p [20:46:11] < pizero > I've suggested before we should have a model for collaborative review. Last time I got yelled at mercilessly for it. But big articles, like good OR, are exactly when this becomes most important. [20:46:12] < dendodge > Yeah, the Mags hardly count. [20:46:13] < lustre > BarkingFish: Agreed, but some users (well, mainly one user) has earned us a reputation for being rude [20:46:27] < lustre > and that's why I've been told multiple times to stay away from WN. [20:46:32] < MC8 > lustre: that's something we need to rectify [20:46:41] < lustre > We can't. [20:46:46] < BarkingFish > lustre: there's more than one user, I can think of at least 2 and one of them is me. [20:46:51] < lustre > There's so few users a cabal is inevitable, and has formed [20:46:57] < lustre > BarkingFish, you're too new. [20:47:04] < BarkingFish > 0.0 [20:47:10] < dendodge > It does seem to be the old people vs the new people. [20:47:22] < lustre > I was told that WN is horrible two years ago. [20:47:29] < BarkingFish > and I joined 2 years ago [20:47:31] < lustre > near when I first started editing WP [20:47:39] < lustre > well, you weren't an admin then :P [20:47:43] < BarkingFish > no. [20:47:50] < dendodge > Some, like MC8 and myself, have managed to cross the line and join the "cabal"—most newer users, however, give up and quit in frustration. I can't say I blame them, TBH. [20:47:51] < BarkingFish > But I was still a vicious little sod [20:47:55] < lustre > dendodge, WN has too steep a learning cuve [20:47:59] < lustre > curve* [20:48:05] < lustre > Wikis are not meant for writing news. [20:48:07] < dendodge > It does. We expect too much from people. [20:48:08] < MC8 > it has a massive learning curve [20:48:19] < Badmin > Indeed. [20:48:27] < dendodge > We expect people to come in and be as good as real journalists right away. [20:48:31] < BarkingFish > lustre: So why does Wikipedia include so much current affairs stuff? [20:48:32] < dendodge > And that's never going to happen. [20:48:42] < lustre > BarkingFish: more users [20:48:44] < BarkingFish > Shouldn't they be dunking that in favor of writing an encyclopedia? [20:48:46] < pizero > lustre: I did suggest a template to gentle the learning curve. Just haven't had time to pursue it yet. [20:48:51] < lustre > people like adding more pages to their "created" list [20:49:18] < BarkingFish > lustre: at the expense of accuracy, thinking stuff through, vandalism and general crap which people have to clean up later. [20:49:22] < lustre > WN has less users, therefore more laziness, therefore less interest in cleaning up ugly pages. [20:49:25] < BarkingFish > We do it the other way round, mostly [20:49:40] < lustre > Even on WP, you see areas where it depends on one/two users [20:49:48] < lustre > i.e., copyright cleanup [20:49:51] < MC8 > pizero: Amgine's quite anti-template; apparently shiny magic templates kill contribs [20:49:57] < lustre > People hate the menial stuff [20:50:00] < BarkingFish > We start by planning the work, collaborating to write it, checking it, verifying it prior to publication, THEN publishing. [20:50:17] < BarkingFish > Wikipedia is simply : Publish it now, tidy up the cockups later [20:50:27] < dendodge > We generally have articles "owned" by a single person. What we need to do is work *together* on stories. Whether that be with newer users, to gently introduce them to the process, or with established editors to produce our best possible stories. [20:50:32] < pizero > This template would be a form for new users to fill out; they'd never see the template end of it. [20:50:36] < lustre > oh yeah, ownership. [20:50:47] < lustre > news articles are "owned" everywhere else. [20:50:58] < MC8 > tbh they're owned here too [20:51:00] < lustre > That's why every other site has bylines. We don't. But it operates the same way. [20:51:01] < dendodge > They shouldn't be "owned" here. [20:51:14] < BarkingFish > dendodge: They're not always. [20:51:19] < dendodge > They should be collaborative—that's the point of a wiki. [20:51:20] < MC8 > they shouldn't be in theory. But they are much of the time [20:51:26] < dendodge > BarkingFish: No, they're not always. [20:51:33] < dendodge > But they usually are. [20:51:43] < BarkingFish > Someone starts a story, someone else goes in and cleans up the typos, copyedits the work, maybe adds something new... [20:51:44] < dendodge > Exceptions are both rare and, usually, our best work. [20:52:15] < MC8 > BarkingFish: the majority is generally written by the same author though [20:52:21] < lustre > pizero: we need an article wizard [20:52:28] < Badmin > +1 [20:52:30] < MC8 > +1 [20:52:33] < lustre > I've said it multiple times and no one helps make one. [20:52:46] * Badmin lacks the ability [20:52:53] < BarkingFish > I lack the concern [20:52:59] < pizero > lustre: That's kind of what I'm talking about, only I'm going for a low-tech approach. [20:53:16] < BarkingFish > We already have the "start a new story" thing in the newsroom. [20:53:26] < lustre > that's not good for new users, though. [20:53:39] < BarkingFish > It prepages the box with the necessary templates, all they have to do is type the stuff for the story in. [20:53:41] < Badmin > Nobody ever looks at the newsroom, either. It's of limited use imo. [20:53:42] < lustre > An extension would really be good, but I don't trust the devs. [20:53:46] < lustre > I do! [20:53:51] < lustre > I use the newsroom all the time :P [20:53:58] < dendodge > I don't. [20:54:02] < lustre > Do people really ignore it? I didn't realize that. [20:54:06] < dendodge > I haven't visited the newsroom for months. [20:54:07] * Badmin just uses RC [20:54:08] < pizero > "start a new story" is only a step or two away from what I'm talking about, though. [20:54:12] < lustre > I always have to check to make sure I'm not writing a duplicate. [20:54:16] < BarkingFish > same here [20:54:35] < Badmin > If we had more changes running through, Newsroom might be more useful [20:54:36] < pizero > I check the newsroom mainly for articles mispublished. [20:54:43] < BarkingFish > and I use the start a new story box too, simply because I forget which dang templates to put on if I start one normally [20:55:00] < dendodge > I use the box, yeah ^_^ [20:55:01] < MC8 > I generally start with the box on the MP [20:55:02] < lustre > I've never started one manually :P [20:55:13] < dendodge > I use the one on the MP, too :) [20:55:14] < Badmin > Yeah, I use the MP box [20:55:37] < dendodge > (On that note, Main Page redesign FTW) [20:55:52] < Badmin > Fascinating though this is, however, we're drfiting more wildly off-course than an Adam Air flight. [20:55:52] < lustre > omg yes [20:56:01] *** MC8 set the channel topic to "Welcome to the Wikinews Workshop! Everyone is welcome to make and discuss suggestions for improving Wikinews here. Please be respectful of others. | This channel is publicly logged. | Improving PR amongst other Wikimedia projects. How do we recruit more users and make ourselves more attractive for prospective contributors?". [20:56:10] < MC8 > (why the hell was that in the topic?) [20:56:15] < Badmin > Yes, Main Page redesign. That's a better thing to discuss than who uses what box ;) [20:56:17] < dendodge > Oh. Are we not going to discuss Tina and Amy? [20:56:24] < Badmin > lol  [20:56:27] < pizero > No. [20:56:41] < lustre > tiny > amy [20:56:42] < Badmin > MC8: Breaking the ice, mainly.  [20:56:47] < dendodge > Amy > Tina [20:56:54] < MC8 > Badmin: as well as going into public logs [20:56:54] < Badmin > Tina > Amy [20:57:05] < dendodge > :") [20:57:23] < pizero > *is* this being logged, still/yet/again? [20:57:32] < lustre > anywho. [20:57:33] < MC8 > yeah, I'll stick it up manually [20:57:33] < dendodge > Yes, it is. [20:57:58] < dendodge > Anyway, back on topic... [20:57:59] < Badmin > Well, yes. Everyone should be able to smile. I see no reason why there can't be occasional humorous exchanges in corporate meetings. Heck, even Parliament. Happier discussions are productive discussions imo. [20:58:07] < BarkingFish > What is happening here is precisely what I raised at the last meeting. All the indians and no bloody chief. [20:58:21] < lustre > can I ask HOW we fix our issues? [20:58:21] < BarkingFish > Can someone please make sure when we have these meetings that a person takes control of them? [20:58:34] < lustre > Because it just looks impossible due to how WN is structured. [20:58:36] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v BarkingFish [20:58:41] < MC8 > there you go [20:58:43] < dendodge > lustre: Does it? [20:58:56] < lustre > as reviews are mandatory [20:59:06] < lustre > and few reviewers review long articles [20:59:09] < dendodge > What we need to do is get our established contributors working together, and with newbies, on collaborative pieces. [20:59:18] < lustre > and long articles are better than short pieces of fluff [20:59:18] < dendodge > And we need to get rid of mandatory peer review. [20:59:22] < BarkingFish > MC8: I meant someone preferably with experience :) [20:59:33] < dendodge > What happened to that doscussion, anyway? [20:59:35] < lustre > dendodge: have fun with that, wasn't that being discussed two months ago? [20:59:36] < MC8 > BarkingFish: like? [20:59:37] * Badmin wonders why the review problem prevents addressing all the other problems [20:59:38] < dendodge > It seemed to just die. [20:59:44] < pizero > Long articles are the ones for which collaborative review would be useful. [20:59:48] < lustre > exactly--WN discussions always die. [20:59:54] *** ChanServ sets mode: -v BarkingFish  [21:00:01] < BarkingFish > Like the people who ran the first one, Tempo and Amgine. [21:00:17] < BarkingFish > neither of whom appear to be here, but it should be controlled either way [21:00:18] < dendodge > Tempo didn't even turn up... [21:00:25] < BarkingFish > for the first one? [21:00:27] < MC8 > heh, that's the hour up [21:00:29] < dendodge > Yag [21:00:30] < BarkingFish > I thought he was there. [21:00:33] < dendodge > No [21:00:34] <-- Badmin has left this channel ("Atmosphere not great in here"). [21:00:44] < BarkingFish > +1 [21:00:55] < pizero > Mandatory peer review is what makes us not a blog. [21:01:06] < dendodge > If we write articles that aren't so time-dependent, then publication can take as long as it likes ^_^ [21:01:25] < pizero > Last week's atmosphere was *much* better. [21:01:35] <-- BarkingFish has left this channel ("Disorganisation is only one step away from chaos."). [21:01:36] < lustre > again: why are we using IRC? [21:01:42] < lustre > that's what happens. [21:01:51] < dendodge > Because it allows for real-time discussion. [21:02:01] < lustre > real-time chaos, too. [21:02:24] < lustre > WN->volunteers->not paid->lazy without consequence->not enough quality articles [21:02:39] < pizero > Unfortunately, these workshops have an implicit premise that the existing arrangement must be bad, so bad atmosphere is probably an inevitable trend for them. [21:02:46] < lustre > WN->quality->lots of rules->new users=confused [21:02:58] < lustre > those are the two issues I see. [21:03:17] < lustre > the review process and the complexity. [21:03:25] --> Mattisse has joined this channel (~chatzilla@dt021n80.tampabay.res.rr.com). [21:03:26] < lustre > collaboration is not hard, we have etherpad. [21:03:27] < pizero > That's why I proposed to give new users something easier to do than write fully-fledged publication-quality articles. [21:03:45] < lustre > briefs? [21:03:49] < lustre > those died out ages ago. [21:04:18] < pizero > I perked up at etherpad because it sounds great, but haven't had time to investigate it yet. [21:04:57] < pizero > If it's still *another* different interface, that doesn't seem too promising, though. [21:05:02] < MC8 > hello, Mattisse [21:05:17] < Mattisse > hello [21:05:35] < pizero > yeah, hi Mattisse. 'Fraid things aren't going as smoothly this week. [21:05:40] < lustre > pizero: it's easy [21:05:49] < lustre > just type and don't delete anyone else's typing :P [21:06:49] --> Tempodivalse has joined this channel (4a6b4e33@wikimedia/tempodivalse). [21:07:01] < MC8 > Tempodivalse: you missed the show [21:07:12] < Tempodivalse > Have we started yet ? [21:07:18] * MC8 blinks [21:07:18] < pizero > Is it possible that IRC moves *too* fast, and we'd do better running these biweekly workshops on-wiki? [21:07:38] < pizero > Isn't that the punchline of a joke? [21:08:00] < MC8 > Tempodivalse: it started an hour ago [21:08:09] < pizero > "Ready when you are, C.B.", or something like that. [21:08:15] < Tempodivalse > Really? I must have my time zones mixed up [21:08:23] < Tempodivalse > I don't see the log bot in here, are we on air? [21:08:26] < MC8 > yes [21:08:32] < pizero > Somehow or other. [21:08:41] < Mattisse > This is not the topic. Just curious. Why is the main page being redesigned? [21:08:42] < Tempodivalse > Well, a rather disappointing showing .. hardly a quorum [21:08:52] < MC8 > Well, you didn't turn up... [21:09:28] < Tempodivalse > !time [21:09:29]  Tempodivalse: UTC: 21:09:29 - San Francisco: 14:09 - New York: 17:09 - London: 22:09 - Brussels: 23:09 - Moscow: 01:09 - New Delhi: 02:39 - Hong Kong: 05:09 - Tokyo: 06:09 - Sydney: 07:09 - Auckland: 09:09 [21:09:56] < MC8 > Mattisse: because it's old [21:10:13] < lustre > Mattisse: look at any other news site [21:10:16] < lustre > look at wikinews [21:10:18] < lustre > uggggleeeee. [21:10:21] < Tempodivalse > !time UTC [21:10:22]  Tempodivalse: UTC: 21:10 [21:10:26] < Tempodivalse > mc8: wrong [21:10:36] < Tempodivalse > it's started just ten minutes ago [21:10:54] < Tempodivalse > Remember that the UK is no longer on UTC, but an hour ahead ... [21:11:06] < MC8 > "Next meeting at April 24 at 20:00 UTC." [21:11:18] < dendodge > Mattisse: Our main page has been in place for some time, and is ugly and out-of-date compared to other news sites. [21:11:26] < dendodge > We just need a change, is all :) [21:11:47] < pizero > It's not *that* bad. I'm not opposed to some improvements. [21:11:56] < lustre > it's too ... short [21:11:56] < Tempodivalse > MC8, just because i'm not here, shouldn't mean the workshop can't take place [21:12:08] < Tempodivalse > fetchcomms, actually, i think shorter is better [21:12:16] < lustre > why? [21:12:21] < lustre > it shows we have little content to showcase. [21:12:22] < Tempodivalse > I'm a minimalist. [21:12:24] < lustre > :P [21:12:31] < Tempodivalse > We *do* have only a little content to showcase. [21:12:37] < Tempodivalse > That's the point. [21:12:41] < pizero > It has been taking place, though the atmosphere drove off one person. [21:12:42] < lustre > yes, but we have to disguise that. [21:12:51] < dendodge > Tempodivalse: Have you seen my design? It's only marginally different to the current one, ATM. [21:12:54] < Mattisse > agree on minimalist [21:12:58] < lustre > People don't want to read a news source that has little news. [21:13:11] < Tempodivalse > Well, then they won't come to WN ... [21:13:15] < dendodge > But we'll have no way to fill all the boxes you want, lustre. [21:13:26] < dendodge > There just aren't enough recent stories. [21:13:40] < Tempodivalse > Content has got to come first, imo [21:13:44] < lustre > what do you mean, dendodge? [21:13:59] < pizero > Remember when someone posted on the cooler that they always read Wikinews first, because it's the most neutral site around? [21:13:59] < lustre > Tempodivalse: but we need to expand our reader base--and through that, our writer base. [21:14:13] < Tempodivalse > we can have the most beautiful ever front page but it's useless if there's no stories to go around [21:14:14] < lustre > that's half good. [21:14:25] < lustre > Tempodivalse, yes, but we can have both [21:14:28] < dendodge > lustre: We don't have enough news to fill the various boxes on your design. [21:14:38] < lustre > you mean the country boxes, or the leads? [21:14:45] < dendodge > The country boxes. [21:14:53] < lustre > hmm [21:14:54] < dendodge > There's never any news for Oceania. [21:14:59] < lustre > that's true. [21:15:04] < dendodge > Ever. Not any more, since all our Ozzies left. [21:15:11] < lustre > well, somwhat [21:15:21] < pizero > We've had several Australia stories just recently. [21:15:33] < Mattisse > why did the ozzies leave? [21:15:34] < dendodge > That's because of our journalism students, though, isn't it? [21:15:43] < Tempodivalse > more stories = more readers = more contributors. It's that simple, really [21:15:58] < dendodge > That was years ago. They just left. They used to be really active, and interest just faded. [21:16:03] < dendodge > I'm not sure why. [21:16:16] < lustre > hmm [21:16:19] < Mattisse > why is an important question [21:16:29] < lustre > dendodge, what about using topic boxes vs region ones? [21:16:41] < lustre > We should at least be able to have a good number of stories to feature that way. [21:16:46] < dendodge > I still don't think we could fill them. [21:16:58] < dendodge > We usually have less than 20 stories in a week. [21:17:08] < lustre > I wish there was a way we could rotate the more popular ones [21:17:15] < lustre > but DPL isn't that smart, I don't think. [21:17:26] < Mattisse > newbies should be treated better [21:17:31] < lustre > i.e., the top two or three categories each week [21:17:32] < Tempodivalse > Well, trying to disguise that we have a low output isn't the way to go, imo [21:17:42] < lustre > Mattisse, yes, and making an article should be easier. [21:17:51] < Tempodivalse > ^ and that [21:17:52] < dendodge > We need to be honest, and say, "We're small, but we're friendly. Come and join in!" [21:18:08] --> diegogrez has joined this channel (~diegogrez@186.20.214.99). [21:18:12] < lustre > Tempodivalse: what can we do, though? news is visual--people won't read if they aren't used to the format. [21:18:14] < Tempodivalse > Just make sure you live up to that [21:18:14] < dendodge > Of course, friendly is an issue we need to work on :P [21:18:33] < Tempodivalse > lustre: Write more stories. [21:18:38] < pizero > Both of which - treating newbies better and making an article easier - are addressed by the "story form" concept. [21:18:44] < lustre > Tempodivalse: i know [21:18:51] < lustre > but I mean, why a wiki as a news platform? [21:18:55] < lustre > it's weird. [21:18:55] < Mattisse > but when a newbie writes a story and the reviewer fails, saying "read the style guide", that's not friendly or informative [21:19:02] < dendodge > So we can collaborate on news stories. [21:19:04] < lustre > Mattisse: that's the laziness issue [21:19:09] < lustre > which is why no one reviews long articles [21:19:21] < lustre > spam> Tornadoes damage hundreds of Missouri homes, force closure of airport [21:19:23] < lustre > review that. [21:19:25] < lustre > :P [21:19:42] < dendodge > What we need is for established editors to join in and help newbies with their articles. [21:19:54] < lustre > laziness--no incentive [21:19:57] < Mattisse > for example, do you ever post on the newbie's page, notifying them that their article failed and why? [21:20:06] < lustre > also ownership, i sense people are afraid to "take over" an article. [21:20:06] < pizero > Mattisse: using a story form would avoid failing newbies articles on most SG issues. [21:20:07] < dendodge > Rather than just failing it, they should sit down and fix it, and try to guide the user through the process by example. [21:20:29] < pizero > The story form would *also* bring together newbies and experienced Wikinewsies. [21:20:34] < Mattisse > yes, I agree dendodge [21:20:36] < Tempodivalse > dendodge: exactly [21:20:37] < lustre > dendodge, exactly, although they would feel it's wasted if the noob never edits again [21:20:57] < lustre > can we name some non-MSM sources that ARE successful, and analyze why? [21:21:03] < lustre > like newser [21:21:23] < Mattisse > There is almost zero personal interaction with a newbie who has submitted an article. [21:21:49] < lustre > then again, newbies don't interact back. [21:22:05] < lustre > they expect their writing to be perfect and don't check to see if the review passed--sometimes, at least. [21:22:06] < MC8 > ok, the first hour is up at http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Wikinews:IRC_workshop/April_24,_2011&action=purge [21:22:27] < Mattisse > suppose a newbie writes an article but doesn't know about the Newsroom? [21:22:51] < pizero > And not checking back would *also* be partly remedied by a "story form". [21:22:59] < dendodge > MC8: Hey, why am I pink? [21:23:07] < MC8 > dendodge: I thought you suited it [21:23:07] * pizero does realize xe's talking to xyrself. [21:23:16] < lustre > no. [21:23:24] < lustre > i'm half listening :P [21:23:27] < MC8 > pizero: I was reading, couldn't think of anything to say back [21:23:48] < pizero > MC8: Oh. [21:23:50] < lustre > by story form, you mean a wizard thing? [21:23:58] < lustre > or a "form of story"?> [21:24:14] < pizero > A form, with some boxes to fill out... [21:24:28] < pizero > Probably short boxes for each of the basic questions, [21:24:43] < pizero > for maybe up to four sources, [21:24:56] < lustre > yeah [21:25:11] < pizero > and maybe a few further details. [21:25:15] < lustre > we need that, but are we going to get it? no. because no one is going to figure out how to put it together. [21:25:18] < lustre > that's WN for ya. [21:25:20] < lustre > :P [21:25:26] < Mattisse > aren't there ways a person could start contributing gradually, like at the other wiki sites, without starting off by writing a full article? [21:25:33] <-- diegogrez has left this channel ("Fuckers."). [21:25:52] < lustre > tempo, look at http://www.newser.com/user-grid.html [21:26:07] < lustre > they get 3-5 user stories/day [21:26:25] < lustre > we get around the same, I think. [21:26:27] < pizero > Mattisse: I don't think so, other than many months of copyediting (which is what I did). [21:26:40] < pizero > So I figured that should be fixed. [21:26:41] < lustre > yet we just somehow seem more pitiful [21:26:53] < Tempodivalse > hmm [21:26:56] < lustre > Mattisse: WN is boring :P [21:27:08] < lustre > copyedit or write an article or say random things at talk pages [21:27:41] * MC8 edits for the community. (Most of) the community is awesome. [21:28:16] < lustre > another thing: [21:28:22] < lustre > users write random stories about everything [21:28:46] < lustre > so a) no user focuses on a specific area (except like nascar1996) and b) we don't cover the BIG HEADLINES. [21:29:07] < MC8 > you can't force users to make certain articles [21:29:11] < lustre > I know [21:29:14] < pizero > Nor should we. [21:29:22] < lustre > but that's one problem. [21:29:33] < lustre > and how do we solve it other than getting more users? [21:29:50] < Mattisse > i gave up on the big headlines because after I wrote it I would find someone else already had [21:30:01] < pizero > We do get more users. But [21:30:27] < pizero > it *can't* happen overnight, and if we tried to make it happen overnight we'd just wreck the things we do have going for us. [21:30:42] < pizero > So we keep whittling away at the problems. [21:30:53] < pizero > I'll tackle the "story form" this week. [21:30:58] < Mattisse > why did users leave here? what happened? [21:31:07] < lustre > people thought it was getting off topic [21:31:33] < pizero > Mattisse may be talking about the Great Exodus of 2010. [21:31:40] < lustre > oohh. [21:32:00] < lustre > let's not talk about that >.> [21:32:02] < Mattisse > what was that? [21:32:06] < Tempodivalse > ugh [21:32:06] < lustre > other than it was a dark time in WN history. [21:32:17] < dendodge > There was lots of drama, and a few users resigned over it. [21:32:21] < Tempodivalse > More than a few [21:32:26] < pizero > Let's not spend the *workshop* talking about it. [21:32:34] < Mattisse > it's referred all the time, but I don't know what happened [21:32:53] < Tempodivalse > mattise, it's a long story [21:33:09] < dendodge > The crux of it was the Matthewedwards fiasco. Search the WN:AAA archives for that name. [21:33:29] < lustre > Mattisse: basically some shit went down and people were hella rude. [21:33:31] < dendodge > We do need to avoid drama. [21:33:38] < Tempodivalse > There were other facets that were nearly as bad too [21:33:40] < lustre > and then it was all a misunderstanding and people got mad. [21:33:41] < pizero > Note that Matthewedwards xyrself stayed, and became a reviewer. [21:33:55] < lustre > largely inactive, now, though. [21:33:56] < dendodge > Just when things get working quite well, we have a massive argument and everything breaks. [21:34:10] < Tempodivalse > I know. The community hurts itself. [21:34:11] < dendodge > It happens every so often in WN history. [21:34:26] < pizero > There were issues of not assuming bad faith, though, and whether or not to assume good faith, and (really) reviewing standards. [21:34:28] < Tempodivalse > 98% of the drama we have can be very very easily avoided by not being so brusque [21:34:32] < dendodge > It usually involves an established editor and a newbie pissing each other off. [21:34:51] < lustre > >_> [21:35:01] < lustre > anywho [21:35:15] < lustre > the problem with WN is that it's all volunteers, and it's a hobby. [21:35:37] < lustre > you can't run a major news site on hobbies without a massive number of volunteers, like WP has. [21:35:41] < pizero > I've got some ideas about replacing AGI, but I've hesitated to put them on-wiki until they're ready... [21:35:54] < lustre > and you can't get volunteers without making it nice for them. [21:35:59] < lustre > like yahoo answers. [21:36:00] < Mattisse > but is nothing is ever discussed, then how does a newbie find out anything? Like me. I feel like I don't know what's going on here. [21:36:14] < lustre > everything is dumbed down for the computer-illiterate. [21:36:23] < lustre > Mattisse: WN needs a much better help structure, yes [21:36:37] < lustre > and Mattisse you don't WANT to know about the Great Exodus thinger [21:36:43] < pizero > Wikis run on *idealism*. Our idealistic vision is free, neutral, reliable citizen journalism. (Have I missed anything?) [21:37:07] < Mattisse > but all the wikipedia sister projects are all volunteers [21:37:14] < Tempodivalse > Well, i think the first priority (other than writing articles) is to foster a caring, encouraging environment for others [21:37:48] < Mattisse > why do "established" editors hardly ever write articles? [21:37:55] < Tempodivalse > For instance, in the last few weeks I had serious thoughts of just quitting again and giving up. [21:38:28] < dendodge > Mattisse: Some of us (like me) are just too busy, while others (like Brian) prefer working on long-term projects. [21:38:39] < Tempodivalse > Everything seems, well, futile. I hate to be pessimistic, but from personal observations a lot of other users feel the same way [21:38:47] < pizero > Tempo: Yeah. And do it *without* compromising the idealistic vision. Believing one can do both is itself idealistic. And it's why I'm passionate about Wikinews. [21:38:48] < MC8 > right, I've logged up to 2130UTC, could someone do the rest? [21:39:07] < lustre > Mattisse: you wonder why Wikiquote is horribly in need to cleanup, Wikiversity has major internal issues, and Wikibooks is less-than-half-baked? [21:39:11] < dendodge > I've pretty much given up on writing for WN, since it's a lot of effort, and nobody will ever read it. [21:39:15] < lustre > wikisource is half decent. [21:39:17] < Tempodivalse > dendodge: same here [21:39:41] < dendodge > And I'm so busy IRL—since I started college, I haven't had time for WN. [21:39:42] < Mattisse > wikisource has a very pleasant atmosphere [21:40:03] < lustre > dendodge: you stupid brits, getting into college at 16 or 17 [21:40:16] < dendodge > So between college and personal issues, I'm kept too busy to write articles. [21:40:16] < lustre > Mattisse: that's because there's nothing to bicker over. [21:40:36] < lustre > personal--girl/boyfriend giving you issues? ;) [21:40:53] < Mattisse > what is there to bicker about here? [21:41:16] < MC8 > lustre: college != university [21:41:24] < dendodge > lustre: I don't really want to say in a publicly logged channel :P [21:41:45] < pizero > Wikinews is *exciting*. Because finding a way to reconcile higher quality demands with wiki-hood is the future of all the projects, and here we're on the front lines of that. [21:41:48] < Mattisse > if editors here don't feel they have the time to write articles, how can you expect a newbie to? [21:41:59] < lustre > MC8: oh lol [21:41:59] <-- dendodge has left this server (Quit: Read error: Fell off the pier).  [21:42:13] < Tempodivalse > I don't really find wikinews exciting any more [21:42:18] < lustre > dendodge has a girl/boyfriend? o_O [21:42:35] < MC8 > lustre: he wishes [21:42:39] --> dendodge has joined this channel (~dendodge@wikinews/Dendodge). [21:43:22] < dendodge > Oops. I sorta clicked the wrong button :P [21:43:31] < lustre > hah. [21:43:36] < lustre > [16:42] lustre dendodge has a girl/boyfriend? [21:43:38] < lustre > [16:42] MC8 lustre: he wishes [21:43:42] < lustre > Tempodivalse: doeds anyone [21:43:45] < lustre > does* [21:43:48] < Mattisse > why don't editors join to cover a particular area? Like on wikipedia - all the editors from India? [21:44:04] < lustre > really, I only write stuff that's interesting to me. [21:44:05] < dendodge > Hey, I said I didn't want it discussed in a publicly logged channel! [21:44:16] < lustre > Mattisse: Nascar1996, for example? [21:44:21] < MC8 > Mattisse: I like the idea of a workforce, but the problem is getting them there [21:44:26] < lustre > not enough users. [21:44:27] < Mattisse > but that's true of all the wikis [21:44:30] < lustre > depressing to write on your own [21:45:22] < Mattisse > yes, like Nascar 1996 [21:46:22] < Mattisse > people from Australia covering Australia, etc. [21:47:46] < pizero > When I've written, I've looked for a story I wanted to share with Wikinews readers 'cause they might not have heard of it. If that happens to be stories on one topic, fine, but maybe it isn't. [21:48:18] < pizero > Never gonna get the big stories, that way. [21:48:21] < Mattisse > there was an editor who said he was from china. He wrote an article that sat for days. I finally rewrote it and it was publish but by that time he was gone. [21:48:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o MC8 [21:48:49] *** MC8 sets mode: +F [21:48:50] *** MC8 sets mode: -o MC8 [21:48:55] < lustre >. [21:48:59] < lustre > remind me what F is. [21:49:11] < MC8 > allow forward [21:49:48] < pizero > A "story form" might also get established editors more into the habit of editing newbies' articles, and that *might* spill over into the non-form ones too. [21:50:20] < pizero > (Is it just me, or do I sound like a broken record?) [21:50:51] < lustre > no. [21:51:06] < Mattisse > but if no one here is willing to write article, why should a newbie? [21:51:14] < MC8 > pizero: I like the idea of a story wizard, not sure how one could implement it [21:51:35] * MC8 secretly enjoys metaspace more than mainspace [21:52:08] < dendodge > Mattisse: I'm willing. I just don't have time. [21:53:11] < Mattisse > there is something wrong that I don't know about. [21:53:11] < lustre > Tornadoes damage hundreds of Missouri homes, force closure of airport [21:53:15] < lustre > SOMEONE REVIEW THTA. [21:53:17] < lustre > THAT*. [21:53:53] < Mattisse > reviewers don't review [21:54:23] < Mattisse > the Tornadoes damage article is very good and it is well sourced [21:55:54] < MC8 > lustre: American Airlines needs local linking and/or added as a cat [21:56:14] < pizero > Mattisse, one piece of the puzzle you *might* be missing (I'm just guessing here) is how big a task peer-reviewing an article actually is. Everything on all sides kind of revolves around that. [21:56:38] < Mattisse > Some one is finally writing Renowned Indian guru Ṡri Satya Sai Baba, dies aged 84 〓 [21:56:40] < Mattisse > I have been looking at that for days. [21:56:51] < gopher65 > crap. Forgot about this thing:P [21:57:11] < gopher65 > Lustre: I'm reviewing that now. [21:57:20] < lustre > yay thankssss [21:57:24] < gopher65 > Is anyone else reviewing it? If they are, I'll stop, since I just started. [21:57:26] < Mattisse > But reviewing an FAC or GAN is a big job too, bigger than reviewing an article here. [21:57:42] < lustre > gopher65: don't think so, mikemoral said he would later if no one else did [21:57:48] < gopher65 > k [22:01:28] < pizero > Mattisse: I expect the whole relentless-news-deadlines thing makes a profound difference. [22:02:06] < Mattisse > but wasn't this site successful once? [22:02:27] < lustre > yeah [22:02:37] < lustre > last year we had tons of articles published each day [22:02:40] < Mattisse > why? [22:02:50] < lustre > there was a writing contest--lots of stuff [22:02:57] < lustre > then users just dropped off the radar [22:03:02] < pizero > More people, I'd say. [22:03:06] < lustre > interest declined. [22:03:20] < pizero > morale declined. [22:03:37] < pizero > spiraled downward, actually. [22:03:56] < Mattisse > why? [22:04:26] < pizero > bad morale creates more bad morale. [22:04:42] < Mattisse > most places on the web people are wanting to publish [22:05:11] < lustre > idk. [22:05:21] < lustre > this whole irc is depressing me [22:05:39] < Mattisse > me too [22:05:40] < pizero > this workshop has been super-depressing. [22:06:01] < pizero > ...which is a morale problem. :-) [22:06:45] < lustre > Mattisse: are you a reviewer yet? [22:06:48] < lustre > if not, become one [22:06:54] < lustre > we need active peeps like you [22:07:03] < lustre > before you become disillusioned and leave [22:07:05] < lustre > :D [22:07:30] < gopher65 > Well, more probably do what I do [22:07:32] <-- dendodge has left this channel. [22:07:44] < Mattisse > Well, I was turned down. Then I was nominated for check user. So I don't think I want to become one. [22:07:53] < gopher65 > Periodically have a week of activity, then stop for a month or two, then have a week of activity. It's a good way to avoid burnout:) [22:07:59] < gopher65 > And you don't get bored that way [22:08:13] < Tempodivalse > well, personally i think this site isn't going to be a success unless it radically changes its editing environment [22:08:25] < Tempodivalse > the status quo is not working. that should be painfully obvious by now [22:08:30] < pizero > Burnout *is* a hazard, with a site this intense. [22:08:33] < gopher65 > If everyone did that, we'd have a more steady flow of articles, with two or three people a week writing/reviewing articles, instead of the current bursts of activity [22:08:41] < lustre > pizero: make the WMF pay us? :P [22:08:46] < lustre > we need /incentive/ [22:09:10] < Tempodivalse > A few days ago I seriously considered quitting. Sometimes I think I still will ... [22:09:22] < Mattisse > how come people are willing to make hundreds of edits a day on wikipedia for years? [22:09:22] < Tempodivalse > anyways ... too depressing :b [22:09:34] < Tempodivalse > WP is more interesting, probably, and more rewarding [22:09:39] < Tempodivalse > to them [22:09:42] < pizero > idealism is the incentive. That, and getting one's high-quality articles published. (There's the rub: rewarding low-quality articles does no good.) [22:09:52] < Tempodivalse > idealism isn't realism [22:10:09] < pizero > No, it's not, and that's why it motivates volunteers. [22:10:31] < pizero > I've experienced this on multiple projects. [22:10:50] < pizero > You look into it, discover they're trying to do something impractical, [22:11:22] < pizero > and think, "wow, these folks are really idealistists; how can I be a part of that?" [22:11:37] < Mattisse > I sill don't understand why there aren't more Nascar types. This is an ideal forum for someone that wants news covered on a particular topic [22:12:21] < Mattisse > look at wikisource. why isn't there burnout there? [22:12:37] < pizero > No news deadlines. [22:13:24] < lustre > also, proofreading is easy. [22:13:38] < pizero > As an alternative to Tempo's sense that things have to change really radically, I think lots of things are somewhat out of whack, and it all adds up. [22:13:40] < Mattisse > the deadlines are a problem. the two to three day thing. it means you have to wait until a topic has been out a few days and try to judge when it is going to go stale. [22:13:52] < Tempodivalse > A project is only as stressful as you think it should be [22:13:56] < lustre > WP gets more eyes than WN [22:14:01] < Tempodivalse > We don't have to have stress if we don't want to. [22:14:08] < pizero > Late review has been proposed, repeatedly. [22:14:09] < lustre > if you think people will appreciate your work more = incentive [22:14:16] < Mattisse > proofreading is the way newbie get into projects [22:14:27] < lustre > b/c it's easy [22:15:32] < Mattisse > wikisource is harder than here, as it is so relentless technical. [22:15:41] < gopher65 > Man Fetchcommons:). You really scoured those articles for info [22:15:42] < gopher65 > Heh [22:15:46] < lustre > hehe. [22:15:54] < pizero > proofreading is how I got into this project; but there isn't enough scope for it to support the number of new contributors we need to train up. [22:16:05] < gopher65 > I like how you put two and two together to come up with some interesting stats, like the "30000 homes still affected out of 47000". Good job. [22:16:26] < lustre > it speaks volumes about how much a life i have on a saturday night. [22:16:27] < gopher65 > errr, residents, not homes [22:16:28] < lustre > :P [22:17:02] < MC8 > saturday night I feel the air is getting hot (like you baby) [22:17:15] < Mattisse > the Tornadoes article is really good. I tried to save it but thankfully Fetchcommons took over. [22:17:24] * MC8 throws that in to make log licensing complicated [22:17:52] < pizero > Mattisse: "Hard" does not necessarily imply the sort of time-oriented intensity we have here. [22:18:56] < Mattisse > well, if the stress level doesn't work here, then maybe the timeframe thing should be modified [22:19:14] < pizero > Late review again. Each time it's brought up, [22:19:27] < pizero > Brian McNeil opposes it. [22:19:37] < pizero > Not without a rational reason. [22:20:08] < pizero > His reasoning, as I understand it, is that if you make significant changes after the "freshness horizon", [22:20:17] < Mattisse > a couple of days ago, about six article went stale in one day. No one had reviewed any for several days. [22:20:53] < pizero > ... you can't be neutral because you know what happened, and you're sliding into encyclopedia territory. [22:20:59] < Mattisse > But "real" news sites do it all the time. [22:21:21] --> Wackywace has joined this channel (~Wackywace@5e0c2187.bb.sky.com). [22:21:26] < lustre > oh yes [22:21:26] < Mattisse > But the first info out is often wrong. [22:21:31] < lustre > We NNEEEEED an udpate system [22:21:42] < lustre > it can be as easy as renaming to "UPDATE: [title]" [22:22:13] < pizero > Update is good too, but we can already do that, sort of, can't we? [22:22:21] < Mattisse > sometimes just after an article is published, the news actually gets covered but TOO LATE [22:22:41] < pizero > Late review is about not slapping down newbies because they didn't get the article in shape fast enough. [22:23:16] < Mattisse > you can just slap UPDATE on an article? [22:23:28] < pizero > Not exactly, no. [22:23:37] < pizero > You can write a new article. [22:23:44] < gopher65 > You can just update the article directly, as long as it has been less than 24 hours since publication [22:24:11] < gopher65 > If it has been longer than that, then it probably warrents a new article in any case. The new article can, however, reuse much of the background material from the old article [22:24:23] < lustre > except then people have to re-review that old stuff [22:24:29] < gopher65 > And since it is using material from a Wikinews article, it can be just cut and paste [22:24:35] < gopher65 > Yeah, there is that problem. [22:25:01] < pizero > If the new story is too different, you may want to make it a separate article even within 24 hours. [22:25:08] < Mattisse > the first news out is usually wire info and copyies of wire info. Then after you write the article, interesting stuff gets published. [22:25:20] < gopher65 > What I'd like to see is some stuff on the talk page saying soething like: "only the first 2 paragraphs are new, everything else was copied from the previously reviewed wikinews article". [22:25:27] < gopher65 > That way we know what to review [22:25:59] < Mattisse > yes, why is there no "collaboration" on the collaboration page? [22:25:59] < gopher65 > CNN does that kind of crap all the time:P [22:26:11] < pizero > There can be. [22:26:27] < pizero > (Is *this* being logged?) [22:26:36] < lustre > doesn't have to be :P [22:26:45] < lustre > unless MC8 is still puttering away. [22:26:47]  Except last time a breaking article was updated - the sub shooting one - the whole article was essentially "two people were injured; no-one arrested" before an update was slapped on the end without updating theorist of the article saying essentially "one was killed and a sailor has been arrested". It's just embarrassing. [22:26:50] < Mattisse > they all do it - the Guardian, Los Angeles Times etc. [22:27:08] <-- Tempodivalse has left this server (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). [22:27:09] * MC8 is logging, but I'm not planning to add pretty colours again [22:27:14] < lustre > hm. [22:27:24] < lustre > why can't we just buy the AP crap, free or not. [22:27:29] < lustre > then we actually have /stories/ [22:27:31] < lustre > :P [22:27:48] < lustre > or like the serbian WN [22:27:55] < gopher65 > SR wikinews sucks though:P [22:27:59] < pizero > Mattisse: That doesn't keep us from aspiring to better. [22:28:00] < lustre > they have the CC licensing agreement with the beta site [22:28:13] < gopher65 > Then we'd just be a mirror site, and I don't see the point to that [22:28:17] < lustre > meh [22:28:17]  Didn't someone ask the WMF about buying wire articles a while back? [22:28:20] < lustre > true [22:28:27] < gopher65 > Then the 'pedians saying "why does wikinews even exist?" would have a real point. [22:28:34] < lustre > Wackywace, if they did, there was shit about non-free content. [22:28:50] < gopher65 > Because I sure as heck wonder why serbian wikinews exists, since it is just a bot run mirror site. [22:29:06] < Mattisse > I agree. there is too much wire stuff in the news as it is. no point in adding more. [22:30:16] < Mattisse > much of writing an article is figuring out how to reconcile conflicting sources, as the breaking news inevitably is inaccurate. [22:30:38] < MC8 > gopher65: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects I dare you [22:30:56] < lustre > please do [22:31:07] < lustre > we can watch Brian protest [22:31:12] < lustre > ;) [22:31:28] < pizero > ...much of it is, if one already knows some other things that we know but most newbies don't. [22:32:04] < pizero > I don't like the nasty edge to this workshop. [22:32:39] < gopher65 > Nasty edge? [22:32:58] < lustre > meh. [22:34:07] < gopher65 > Serbian wikinews is literally a bot run mirror site. There are 0 articles from wikimedias. All they do is copy content from other sites. That's hardly project worthy of supporting. [22:34:13] <-- Wackywace has left this server (Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi). [22:34:18] < gopher65 > And I'm not going to lie and say otherwise just to be PC about it:P. [22:34:26] < pizero > These workshops always had the potential to be a gathering place for discontent. Basically negative vibes. They seem to be more prevalent this time around. Not that some of this hasn't been great constructive stuff. [22:34:44] < lustre > anywho [22:34:48] < lustre > i'm off for summer [22:35:02] *** lustre is now known as lustre|afk. [22:35:12] < gopher65 > Without dissent leads to discord, and discord leads to discussion, and discussion leads to understanding. [22:35:18] < gopher65 > -Without;) [22:35:58] < pizero > thought you were headed for "leads to the Dark Side". :-) [22:36:01] < lustre&#124;afk > i meant supper [22:36:04] * lustre|afk fails. [22:36:17] < gopher65 > And understanding leads to supp... [22:36:19] < gopher65 > wait [22:36:22] < lustre&#124;afk > haha [22:39:08] < pizero > At what point does this "end"? [22:39:10] < Mattisse > it feels like there are parents in the room. can't discuss anything in front of them. [22:39:41] < gopher65 > When everyone stops talking [22:39:47] < gopher65 > I think I came in when it was already over [22:40:05] < pizero > What the log is for, maybe. [22:42:22] < MC8 > I'll paste the lot again